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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 02/17/2005 : 10:18:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dude, please relax, you'll live longer.
Pull your head out of your ass, you'll see more.
See? I can be snitty too!
quote:
Speaking of time, I have to stand by my statement. If a divine being is capable of creating a cosmos and starting up the space-time continuum, I gotta figure he's above and apart from that continuum.
First, you must provide evidence that such a being exists. Then you must provide evidence such a being has, in fact, meddled around inside this universe.
Basically, you are making shit up as you go along. It's a fun game, but has no value outside of entertainment and speculation.
The fact that you claim human evolution is "spotty" says enough. The evidence that supports human evolution and common descent is clear, you are either just ignorant of it, or deliberately ignore it. Ignorance, as long as it isn't willfull ignorance, can be corrected. I suggest you head over to the Talkorigins archive.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
And, in my opinion, the strongest evidence for common descent. HERVs
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section4.html#retroviruses
If that's not enough for ya, speak up. There is more.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2005 : 12:27:18 [Permalink]
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Now boys, you'll never make your points with sarcasm. It has a tendency to clog the ear. |
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jimrobb
New Member
38 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2005 : 14:37:39 [Permalink]
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| I repent me of sarcasm. Thanks for the reminder, beskeptigal! |
Jim Robb  |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2005 : 14:41:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
I repent me of sarcasm
Don't repent, just explain how it is that you think HERVs are "spotty" evidence for evolution.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2005 : 15:28:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I'd think not because we know that the IPU in question is a fabrication, unless of course we find Dude in his garage mucking out with the afore-mentioned, invisible shovel. On the other hand, we don't know what's out there in the cosmos.
At the same time, the anology is quite good because the various gods & all are fabrications of their worshipers, past and present.
Make sense?
Almost... (nit pickin' time  )
You are correct in stating that we know IPUs are a fabrication, but as you point out, so are gods a fabrication of the people who worship them--so it's a wash on that point.
As to your second point about humanity's lack of knowledge about what's "out there" in the cosmos, I needn't remind you that that's an argument from ignorance. But so is the IPU living in a garage, because according to the "theory" of IPUs, we don't know everything there is to know about garages. Garages function in the same manner as deep space in this respect. IPUs inhabit a dimension that we know absolutely nothing about. They are completely beyond our ability to detect with modern scientific instrumentation. How they manage to exist in garages on earth, what purposes the garages serve (are they portals? prisons?), and where the IPUs come from are all unanswerable queries at this time. Maybe these questions can never be answered.
So, filthy, both can be forced to fit inside "gaps" in our understand of the world. There will always be unknowns, and they will always be people making claims about what occupies those areas, whether it be gods or IPUs. I don't see how any one argument from ignorance can be any more "probable" than another. Both are equally speculative and not based on anything provably solid, scientific, or testable.
Make sense?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/17/2005 16:04:11 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2005 : 19:32:51 [Permalink]
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The diference is that I have put forth no fabrications; merelt mentioned a possibility in a vasrt number of them.
And this is getting as old as it is pointless.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2005 : 19:56:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
The diference is that I have put forth no fabrications; merelt mentioned a possibility in a vasrt number of them.
No, you didn't posit specifics, just stated that the discovery of one concept is more likely than another. I disagree with that specifically because it's so vague. Unknowns and undefineds cannot have varying odds. quote:
And this is getting as old as it is pointless.
Sorry, filthy. I thought we were just shooting the breeze. I still can't say I've entirely grasped your point then, but if you're done talking, you're done.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/17/2005 22:27:40 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2005 : 03:16:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
The diference is that I have put forth no fabrications; merelt mentioned a possibility in a vasrt number of them.
No, you didn't posit specifics, just stated that the discovery of one concept is more likely than another. I disagree with that specifically because it's so vague. Unknowns and undefineds cannot have varying odds. quote:
And this is getting as old as it is pointless.
Sorry, filthy. I thought we were just shooting the breeze. I still can't say I've entirely grasped your point then, but if you're done talking, you're done.
It is the difference between a known fabrication, and an unknown possibility, and I sometimes get a bit short-tempered if I think I'm arguing toward no end. Which I am. Again.
Real-world example: If, say ten years ago, you'd speculated to the chief editor of journal Nature that something as unlikely as Homo florinisis[sp?), might be found someday, what do you think his reaction would have been?
"Yeah, well, I guess it's possible; now go home and take your medications -- have a nice day (somebody call security)."
And then there's Piltdown....
The whole point is that a possibility need not be dismissed out-of-hand, and outright fabrications have only amusment value.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2005 : 04:36:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jimrobb
Please check out my blog, Skeptics Club, to read my nifty new post on Paul's letter to the Galatians being the first and most authenticated gospel account. Really.
Ok, I have done that!
I had to reread Galatians (KJV) before I started with your post.quote:
No one thinks Paul is a liar
But why do you then claim that Paul learned about the Gospel from the original disciples when Paul claims the opposite ? Galatians 1:12
I find Galatians very unimpressive. A gospel? It says almost nothing about the nature of Jesus Christ. Its more like inter-sect political propaganda, Peter is wrong and Paul is right. He spends most of the letter explaining how he is right. (That the law in general and circumcision in particular is pointless.)
What can we say from Galatians about a historical Christ? I found the following statements.
- Christ is not a man. 1:1
- Christ was raised from the dead by God 1:1
- Paul met James, the lords brother 1:19
- God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law 4:4
Even if the last can be seen as indicating a historical Christ, its not especially unique (compared to other religions) and this and the two first does not really place Christ as a figure in history.
The third on the list 1:19 seems to indicate that at Pauls time there was a man who was called the the lords brother, but that is the only sentence in Galatians that could give an indication of a historical Christ within recent time. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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jimrobb
New Member
38 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2005 : 11:01:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Paul did not think of Jesus' resurrection in physical terms. Paul described a "vision" of Christ which was strictly spiritual in nature.
Thoughtful point. This subject has drifted sufficiently from the Tsunami theme that I've moved the Paul, Galatians, biblical higher criticism discussion started here to it's own thread, entitled "Extremely Early Textual Evidence of Jesus." I'll reply to existing posts on this stuff here over there. Enjoy! |
Jim Robb |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2005 : 14:42:02 [Permalink]
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Why don't you start a thread an explain to us how the evidence for evolution is "spotty"?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2005 : 00:21:07 [Permalink]
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Still waiting to hear from you on that "spotty" evidence for evolution Jim.
How about it huh?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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jimrobb
New Member
38 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 20:16:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Still waiting to hear from you on that "spotty" evidence for evolution Jim.
Hate to wimp out on you, Dude, but truthfully I do not possess enough personal scientific knowledge on origins issues to lay out a good case one way or another.
I do believe the creation account in the book of Genesis is largely symbolic. For example, take the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil." [Read for yourself] It seems self-evident to me that this forbidden fruit consisted of a fall from innocence that, according to the Bible, need not have occurred. Genesis seems to be saying that we chose to lose our innocence, and that we've paid a price. Makes sense to me.
But as to how God created us "from the clay," I do not know. |
Jim Robb |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 20:48:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jimrobb
It seems self-evident to me that this forbidden fruit consisted of a fall from innocence that, according to the Bible, need not have occurred. Genesis seems to be saying that we chose to lose our innocence, and that we've paid a price. Makes sense to me.
No, actually it makes very little sense.
The fruit came from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil." Before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve were mere animals, with no conception of morality. Without such a conception, they couldn't have known that it was "wrong" to disobey god or to eat the fruit. And without such knowledge, it can hardly be considered a choice, as creatures incapable weighing the consequences of their actions cannot be said to posses free will. Thus, the little shit storm god whips up after learning of their "trangression" and the heartless punishments he metes out seem wholly unjustified. I mean, it wasn't enough to banish those two for their unwitting mastication, the psychopath actually curses the ground. [Read for yourself] Seems he was a little paranoid about the possibilty of Adam and Eve finding their way to the tree of eternal life and becoming like one of the other gods. (God says that he fears Adam and Eve could "become like one of us" in the passage. [Read for yourself]) So the story is more a parable about a jealous god's power grab than anything to do with accepting personal responsibilty for mankind's present condition.
But consider: what if they had never eaten the forbidden fruit? Well, I'd expect us humans would still be as "innocent" as the animals in the forest today. Or as ignorant, however you choose to look at it. I mean true, you can't pass moral judgements on wild animals, but that's because they are too dumb to know better. I personally don't consider that a preferable trade off. I think possessing knowledge of good and evil is what makes us human. I have no idea what Adam and Eve were at the instance of creation, but by any standard they weren't yet human beings.
But of course it's just an old story. A fairy tale not meant to be taken literally, and certainly nothing to base your life on. Right, jimrobb? I mean, it would be folly to place any sort of confidence into a book that makes so little sense.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/24/2005 21:52:37 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 00:02:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hate to wimp out on you, Dude, but truthfully I do not possess enough personal scientific knowledge on origins issues to lay out a good case one way or another.
Then retract your statement, and publish that retraction in your blog.
Stick to speaking about what you know, you seem to be a halfway accomplished apologist, able to justify the most moronic and idiotic of things so your "god" doesn't end up looking like a murdering psycopathic degenerate asshole. (it's a futile effort by the way)
Just publish a simple 2 sentence post to your blog. Admit you don't really know anything about the evidence for evolution (which you have done here already) and retract your claim that the evidence is "spotty".
Then we can get to talking about changing the name of you blog.... Skeptics Club indeed...
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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