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sweetmiracle
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
 Posted - 02/27/2005 : 21:25:00 [Permalink]
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Bit of a strange thing for a first post, but here goes....
Why be so quick to limit discussion of the concept of diety to the Christian belief? Maybe there is a god, and she/he is really:
*Cruel and vindictive
-or-
*One who sees us like we see puppies at a shelter...cute, but annoying, and in need of being thinned out regularly.
-or-
*One who made us as an experiment, but who has limited power and foresight. Perhaps our universe was made by a junior diety who was working on black holes. He/she made us up to a certain point as a project, then simply left our world to develop on it's own.
These last two would imply that the diety in question be deficient in understanding of the beings created, if she/he were aware of us.
These ideas are at least as plausible as the idea of an omnipotent, omnipresent god who hardwired us for justice, fairness and morality, then proceeded to display none of the above.
Not that I really am committed to any of those views....but they deserve some consideration. And they're good mind-stretchers... |
Remarkable claims require remarkable proof.
-Carl Sagan |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2005 : 03:16:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by sweetmiracle
Bit of a strange thing for a first post, but here goes....
Why be so quick to limit discussion of the concept of diety to the Christian belief? Maybe there is a god, and she/he is really:
*Cruel and vindictive
-or-
*One who sees us like we see puppies at a shelter...cute, but annoying, and in need of being thinned out regularly.
-or-
*One who made us as an experiment, but who has limited power and foresight. Perhaps our universe was made by a junior diety who was working on black holes. He/she made us up to a certain point as a project, then simply left our world to develop on it's own.
These last two would imply that the diety in question be deficient in understanding of the beings created, if she/he were aware of us.
These ideas are at least as plausible as the idea of an omnipotent, omnipresent god who hardwired us for justice, fairness and morality, then proceeded to display none of the above.
Not that I really am committed to any of those views....but they deserve some consideration. And they're good mind-stretchers...
Hi sweetmiracle, and welcome to SFN!
But you see, all of that and much more has been taken into consideration. Many times for all deities. The Christian version gets more critism simply because the Christian version is the one that we see the most of.
Thus far, there has been no empirical evidence put forth in favor of the existance of any supernatural entity, benign, belicose, bewildered, or besotted. You cannot define what you cannot find.
Which is not to say that all skeptics are atheists. There are plenty of skeptical believers, although I think that they have a sort of a blind spot when it comes to their faith. But then, we all have these of one sort or another.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2005 : 05:01:43 [Permalink]
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Not all skeptics are atheist and not all atheists are skeptics.
Welcome sweetmiracle!
There are almost as many opinion and ideas of deities as there are people. It's when someone claims that their idea or opinion is the right one that we want evidence.
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2005 : 05:25:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jimrobb
But I believe there was a fall. It's just that it didn't have to occur at High Noon on the eighth day of creation. But, in my view, we tend to make too much of the archetypical fall, and not enough of the less-controversial personal fall each of us has experienced. I have sinned, am a sinner. I believe we're all in that boat.
So the creation was imperfect from the beginning?
Do we need redemption for being who we are? |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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sweetmiracle
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2005 : 09:54:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by jimrobb
But I believe there was a fall. It's just that it didn't have to occur at High Noon on the eighth day of creation. But, in my view, we tend to make too much of the archetypical fall, and not enough of the less-controversial personal fall each of us has experienced. I have sinned, am a sinner. I believe we're all in that boat.
So the creation was imperfect from the beginning?
Do we need redemption for being who we are?
That is what the Bible seems to say. It's like buying a new appliance. If an occasional one breaks down, we feel that that is normal. But if all of them ome off the assembly line with the same major malfunction, then we know that there is a flaw in design, engineering or materials.
So, it seems to me that the Bible says that God made us with faulty design or allowed us to be damaged before we 'hit the market', so to speak.
But instead of taking complete responsibilty and fixing the mess, the god of the Bible makes very limited restitution to a few and holds the rest responsible for his error or lack of care. And, instead of simply destroying the large number of defective ones he doesn't want to fix, he plans to torture them forever for what they did in a very limited time frame.
Where is the justice that the Bible talks about?
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Remarkable claims require remarkable proof.
-Carl Sagan |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2005 : 11:29:44 [Permalink]
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I forgot to mention, according to the Bible women must have been mostly given blanket forgiveness for their original sin, not when Jesus died, but when modern anesthesia was born. That was when if one lived in a well enough off society women started getting pain relief from childbirth.
Sorry you guys still have to toil. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2005 : 17:42:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Sorry you guys still have to toil.
We've had tractors, chain saws, and other nice appliances for some time now, as well... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 03:58:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Sorry you guys still have to toil.
We've had tractors, chain saws, and other nice appliances for some time now, as well...
Oh ya, forgot about those. Guess we're all forgiven then. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 04:23:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Where is the justice that the Bible talks about?
Doesn't exist outside the mind of the crazy fundie crowd or the imbecilic apologist crowd.
No rational person can accept any kind of literal reading of the bible as true. It's utter nonsense.
Even as parable and metaphor the vast majority is downright viscious and meanspirited.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 04:28:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Sorry you guys still have to toil.
We've had tractors, chain saws, and other nice appliances for some time now, as well...
Oh ya, forgot about those. Guess we're all forgiven then.
Not so fast! Years ago, my left kneecap was almost cut in half by a chainsaw (that hurt!), and tractors kill and maim farmers every year. I think we guys are still on the Heavenly Shit List.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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jimrobb
New Member
38 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 21:25:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
What he seems to be doing is testing interpretations. Some of those interpretations might indeed infuriate a fundamentalist. That he uses the bible to support an interpretation that he is suggesting should not come as a surprise since he never ever claims to be anything other than a Christian. In other words,
He is using critical thinking, or attempting to, within the confines of biblical interpretation, and not in the broader sense, the one that many of us would prefer, of questioning his faith.
Man, I take a couple of days off, and the world explodes! (Not attempting to prove causality!) Way too many fascinating posts to respond to in one night, so give me a day or two to think and then speak.
Kil (improbably named), I thank you! You have put your finger on what I'm at least attempting. I appreciate someone agreeing that skepticism and faith can co-exist, however uncomfortably at times. I've been a doubter all my life. It's just that my faith is stronger than my doubt.
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
You said "Truth matters, It's all that matters. Literal, objective truth." How you have arrived at that conclusion with such a lax interpretation of the book upon which your faith is founded is beyond comprehension.
H., you've got an incisive mind. But I can't agree that my interpretation of the Bible is "lax." Jesus said, during a sermon, that the mustard seed was the smallest seed. [Read for yourself] But of course it isn't. So a fundamentalist Christian, requiring every word to be literally true, must lose faith at this point. However, at college I majored in English Literature. That helped me with biblical interpretation. When a guy is preaching, allow hyperbole, story, etc. Jesus taught almost exclusively using the parable method. These are stories he made up, fiction. Does that make the Bible untrue, or perhaps does that show Jesus to be a genius speaker? Everyone understood the parables to be stories that carried a critical grain of truth. I'm suggesting that the Creation account is parable. Did the author understand it that way? Not sure. The author was probably passing on a tradition. So I dunno. Adam means "man." It just seems obvious that it's not meant as history per se. |
Jim Robb  |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 22:18:34 [Permalink]
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| The question should not be "why do bad things happen." The question should be "why does God allow anything good to happen." When we'vfe sinned as much as we have, we are so fortunate to have a God merciful enough to allow ANYTHING good to happen. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2005 : 00:53:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
The question should not be "why do bad things happen." The question should be "why does God allow anything good to happen." When we'vfe sinned as much as we have, we are so fortunate to have a God merciful enough to allow ANYTHING good to happen.
So your belief that God is not a merciless sadist puzzles you? |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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sweetmiracle
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2005 : 07:13:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
The question should not be "why do bad things happen." The question should be "why does God allow anything good to happen." When we'vfe sinned as much as we have, we are so fortunate to have a God merciful enough to allow ANYTHING good to happen.
So your belief that God is not a merciless sadist puzzles you?
That's quite a question....
So creation88 is implying that if we feed the diety more ego-trips, he will act in a more 'humane' and 'civilized' manner? |
Remarkable claims require remarkable proof.
-Carl Sagan |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2005 : 07:25:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by sweetmiracle
So creation88 is implying that if we feed the diety more ego-trips, he will act in a more 'humane' and 'civilized' manner?
It's really funny actually.
According to christian mythology Jesus taught us how to live and act, but that does not really matter at all.
It kissing his ass that is important.
http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.mv |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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