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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend

60 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2005 :  06:58:26  Show Profile  Visit serendipitypublishing's Homepage Send serendipitypublishing a Private Message
The link below gives some information on the Nebra sky Disc:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1022905/posts

Here's an alternative view : The Sky disc is not of German origin but Egyptian or Babylonian.

Here is a quote from the December Astronomy Magazine article entitled ‘Astrology: Fact or Fiction?' :
quote:

At night, thousands of stars shine overhead. How can we ever get to know all the stars, tell one from another, or even understand their effect on our lives?
People first tried to answer these questions 6,000 years ago in the “Cradle of Civilization” - Mesopotamia. In Southern Babylonia, a tribe known as the Chaldeans looked to the stars for guidance and counted their months by the phases of the moon.
When the cresent Moon appeared in the western evening sky, it signaled the beginning of a new lunar month of 29 or 30 days. In those ancient times, the first cresent Moon of Summer was seen among the stars of Leo the Lion. The Chaldeans noticed the Moon appeared farther east each evening, waxing full in different constellations each month. It passed through Virrgo the Virgin, through Libra the scales, and on through the same constellations year after year. Thousands of years later, the Greeks called the constellations the ‘circle of animals,' or zodiakos kyklos - the zodiac.


In Egypt every year for 3 months the rains fall causing the Nile to flood. This is from July until October. These floods were the lifeline of those ancient peoples as it was this flooding that irrigated the land. The 3 months pass through the constellations of Leo, Virgo and Libra.
You can see in the diagram below how the first cresent moon of summer rises on the western horizon in the constellation of Leo. Following it round you can see the other 2 constellations which the moon rises in during the flooding season.
Towards the end of this period the rains begin to ease and this produces a Rainbow in the northern skies.

'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/

Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2005 :  07:37:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing
In Egypt every year for 3 months the rains fall causing the Nile to flood. This is from July until October. These floods were the lifeline of those ancient peoples as it was this flooding that irrigated the land. The 3 months pass through the constellations of Leo, Virgo and Libra.
You can see in the diagram below how the first cresent moon of summer rises on the western horizon in the constellation of Leo. Following it round you can see the other 2 constellations which the moon rises in during the flooding season.
Towards the end of this period the rains begin to ease and this produces a Rainbow in the northern skies.


This is rather flimsy, no? First, the disk was found in Germany and looks nothing like any Egyptian or Babylonian artifact I know of. Perhaps the knowledge of Egyptian whateveritis made it up north into central Europe, but this assumes that the star map is actually what you say it is. I don't think it is.

For instance, the article you referenced calles the star cluster near the chrecent moon Pleiades. You, however, have broken it up into two different constellations. Unfortunately, these don't look like the constellations from other sites. For instance, here is an image of Leo:



Your image of Virgo is also a bit of a stretch.

And finally, your notion of the rainbow only appearing at the end of the Egyptian rainy season is somewhat facile. Rainbows appear under a variety of circomstances, but the end of the rainy season isn't one of them.

SP, have you considered that the original notion is correct? Why can't the small start cluster be the (more logical) Pleiades? Why can your rainbow not be just a river or other body of water? Why do you not think that the two images be cimply the crescent moon and the sun?

And what do we gain by positing your scenario?
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2005 :  07:50:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Pretty coherent for a Freeper, I must say. Didn't know they had it in them.

One might speculate that this is a very early and rether simpilistic version of an astrolabe. A great many so-called primithve cultures did some astronomy, and many were quite good at it.

quote:
Astrology has had a major influence on the history and development of astronomy. The ancient astronomers were motivated to measure the positions of the stars and planets and to keep track of eclipses for astrological reasons (the word "horoscope" is from the Latin horoscopium which, in turn, is from the Greek words for "boundary" (the horizon) and "target" (object of observation). Their terminology, measurements and techniques were the foundation for the astronomical knowledge that eventually evolved.

Many old astrolabes had astrological features that would allow the user to determine horoscopes. Creating a horoscope requires knowledge of the positions of the planets and the ecliptic for a certain date and time. The astrologer interprets the aspects to advise his client. The astrolabe was a convenient way to determine a horoscope because much astrological stress was placed on the position of the ecliptic. Of particular interest were the ecliptic degree on the eastern horizon (the ascendant), the ecliptic degree on the western horizon (the descendent) and the ecliptic degree on the meridian (the degree of mid-heaven). In use, the astrolabe is set to the time and date of interest (birth, death, coronation, etc.) and the ecliptic degrees are read directly.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2005 :  08:15:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing

The link below gives some information on the Nebra sky Disc:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1022905/posts

Here's an alternative view : The Sky disc is not of German origin but Egyptian or Babylonian.

Here is a quote from the December Astronomy Magazine article entitled ‘Astrology: Fact or Fiction?' :
quote:

At night, thousands of stars shine overhead. How can we ever get to know all the stars, tell one from another, or even understand their effect on our lives?
People first tried to answer these questions 6,000 years ago in the “Cradle of Civilization” - Mesopotamia. In Southern Babylonia, a tribe known as the Chaldeans looked to the stars for guidance and counted their months by the phases of the moon.
When the cresent Moon appeared in the western evening sky, it signaled the beginning of a new lunar month of 29 or 30 days. In those ancient times, the first cresent Moon of Summer was seen among the stars of Leo the Lion. The Chaldeans noticed the Moon appeared farther east each evening, waxing full in different constellations each month. It passed through Virrgo the Virgin, through Libra the scales, and on through the same constellations year after year. Thousands of years later, the Greeks called the constellations the ‘circle of animals,' or zodiakos kyklos - the zodiac.


In Egypt every year for 3 months the rains fall causing the Nile to flood. This is from July until October. These floods were the lifeline of those ancient peoples as it was this flooding that irrigated the land. The 3 months pass through the constellations of Leo, Virgo and Libra.
You can see in the diagram below how the first cresent moon of summer rises on the western horizon in the constellation of Leo. Following it round you can see the other 2 constellations which the moon rises in during the flooding season.
Towards the end of this period the rains begin to ease and this produces a Rainbow in the northern skies.




Every culture recognizes patterns in the sky. You are applying Greek designations to an alledgedly Egyptian artifact. The Egyptian constellation designations differed from the Greek. Here is a listing of more problems for the artifact

1) The piece is unlike any of Egyptian origin that I have ever seen.
2) You have an extra "star" that is unaccounted for. It is unlikely that the star would be all by itself if the piece depicted constellations.
3) I see nothing to disuade me that this piece wasn't Germanic in origin or perhaps Mongolian.
4) Egyptians represented stars as pointed objects, not circular ones.


Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2005 :  08:19:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

Pretty coherent for a Freeper, I must say. Didn't know they had it in them.


What's a "Freeper"? I've seen this used over at toehr sites, but I'm now sure that they're referring to...
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2005 :  09:39:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist

quote:
Originally posted by filthy

Pretty coherent for a Freeper, I must say. Didn't know they had it in them.


What's a "Freeper"? I've seen this used over at toehr sites, but I'm now sure that they're referring to...

FreeRepublic.com. They're one of the more hysterical, right-wing sites. Often, they 'freep', that is, multiple vote, online, political polls in attempts, sometimes successful, to influence the outcome.

So naturally, I joined the forum, but alas, got banned after a single, disagreeing post.

Sample:
quote:
O'Reilly Spanks AARP Tonight!
USA Next ^ | 2/16/05 | ceoinva


Posted on 02/16/2005 8:29:15 AM PST by ceoinva


Bill O'Reilly takes on the AARP tonight (8 and 11 ET). USA Next Chairman and CEO, Charlie Jarvis, will help Bill smack the AARP around!

Should be fun to watch!

Tune in!

Tell your family and friends.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend

60 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2005 :  17:01:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit serendipitypublishing's Homepage Send serendipitypublishing a Private Message
quote:
2) You have an extra "star" that is unaccounted for. It is unlikely that the star would be all by itself if the piece depicted constellations.


I would say that the star standing on it's own represents Sirius coinciding with the summer solstice. First sign of the oncoming floods. But I'm not sure why it'd represented in that position. Any ideas ?? The only thing I notice is that it si directly in the centre of the horizon.

quote:
For instance, the article you referenced calles the star cluster near the chrecent moon Pleiades. You, however, have broken it up into two different constellations. Unfortunately, these don't look like the constellations from other sites.


It doesn't look like the pleiades to me. You must look at the disk differently, the horizon markers are important for they show the relative positions of each individual constellation during the rise of the cresent moon in each lunar cycle. The constellation of Leo and constellation of Libra appear to be joined but they are just representations of their positions relative to the western horizon.

!st you see the rising of the Star Sirius. The the cresent moon in Leo, after the cresent moon in Virgo and then the cresent moon in Libra for the three months of flooding.

'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2005 :  08:31:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing

quote:
2) You have an extra "star" that is unaccounted for. It is unlikely that the star would be all by itself if the piece depicted constellations.


I would say that the star standing on it's own represents Sirius coinciding with the summer solstice. First sign of the oncoming floods. But I'm not sure why it'd represented in that position. Any ideas ?? The only thing I notice is that it si directly in the centre of the horizon.




My idea is that your analysis of the piece is incorrect.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2005 :  09:09:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing
quote:
For instance, the article you referenced calles the star cluster near the chrecent moon Pleiades. You, however, have broken it up into two different constellations. Unfortunately, these don't look like the constellations from other sites.


It doesn't look like the pleiades to me. You must look at the disk differently, the horizon markers are important for they show the relative positions of each individual constellation during the rise of the cresent moon in each lunar cycle. The constellation of Leo and constellation of Libra appear to be joined but they are just representations of their positions relative to the western horizon.
Interesting. Since YOU don't think it looks like Pleiades, then the possibility is dismissed out of hand. But when I suggest that your reconstructed constellations look nothing like those I posted from other sites, I'm guilty of not seeing it right.

You asked for comments. I (and others) have given them, mostly in the negative. Nevertheless, you have not yet budged from what are clearly untenable positions.

Why do you post here?
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend

60 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2005 :  13:43:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit serendipitypublishing's Homepage Send serendipitypublishing a Private Message
I enjoy your comments, that's why I post. If I agree with something said then I admit it otherwise I keep it in mind. Don't think for one moment that if you post a negative comment I shall agree with it, you're not that good a skeptic yet Cuneiformist, you need much practice. There are one or two members posting on this forum, no names mentioned, who I have learnt from and their skeptical analysis has been brilliant, that is why I post here. Other members have given good feedback with I appreciate, some are just funny. On another Subject, namely, the Olympic rings, I have had great help from a skeptic friend, I will post there again but only when I have something to say to move it forward or to end it.
You asked before, what do you gain from accepting my idea ? In answer to this Cuneiformist, you are a skeptic, I'm not expecting you to agree with me, I'm looking for flaws so I can improve any valid idea. Isn't this the purpose of this forum, the critical analysis of ideas ?
Thanks for posting the constellations but I still think the Disc shows the three constellations during the flood of the river Nile. When I have something further to say about it which I think is important, I'll post.
I value your input as a skeptic but I'm not asking you to reply unless you feel any interest. But you will have to do better if you want to create a doubt in my mind.

'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2005 :  21:40:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing

Towards the end of this period the rains begin to ease and this produces a Rainbow in the northern skies.
Only if the laws of physics change at that time. In Cairo, at 30° north latitude, the Sun is always in the south. Rainbows appear opposite the Sun (in relation to the viewer). Considering only primary rainbows, on or about the equinoxes, observers in Cairo, at dawn and dusk, could see rainbows extend from 12° S to 72° N along the western and eastern horizons (respectively). It's important to note that you'll never see an atmospheric rainbow when the Sun is more than 42° high in the sky, so even in late October, rainbows would not be visible at noon in Cairo, the only time of day they might straddle the North Pole as you say is depicted. On December 21st, they might climb as "high" as 11° above the northern horizon, but the depicted bow is much larger than would be possible under such conditions.

Plus, if it's a sky map, the rainbow is upside-down. The ends of its arc should be on the horizon, always.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2005 :  22:20:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing
Thanks for posting the constellations but I still think the Disc shows the three constellations during the flood of the river Nile. When I have something further to say about it which I think is important, I'll post.
Which is fucking neat-- you can think whatever you like. You can say that the little dots on the fucking disc are really the code to Super Mario Brothers, or the Masons, or whatever else you like. Really-- that's fine. And you can certainly think that the disc "shows the three constellations during the flood of the river Nile," and that's fine, too.

The problem is, if the disc shows nothing like the actual fucking constellations you purport it does, you look stupid. Especially when it's clear that they don't. Seriously. I showed how Leo looks. It's nothing like the MicroSoft Paint Leo you drew and linked here. Nor is Virgo. Nothing.

quote:
I value your input as a skeptic but I'm not asking you to reply unless you feel any interest. But you will have to do better if you want to create a doubt in my mind.
Obviously. And if by "do better" you mean "put a gun to my head" then fine. Because you're clearly already hell-bent on "proving" whatever delusional idea you have to prove, actual data notwithstanding. So fine. Turn a blind eye to the fact that your constellations are fabrications based on imagination and not accepted convention. And them play the martyr role where your lame ideas are unjustly persecuted by the establishment. Then whine some more and ask for money. But spare me the drama of your crusade!
Edited by - Cuneiformist on 02/18/2005 22:21:01
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2005 :  22:49:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
But spare me the drama of your crusade!
Are you sure it's a crusade? If I were a betting man, I would guess that serendipitypublishing wishes to put a book out on these related posts soon. (Something regarding an early civilization far more advanced than previously speculated.) I would further wager that his goal isn't proving any of the contentions he'll raise (when do they ever try?), but rather, to make his tale convincing enough to make a few believers and turn a few bucks. I think he's just making sure he's not claiming anything impossible or simplisticly stupid. (For certain he'll have to drop his upsidedown rainbow now). The rest... just has to remain in the realm of "possible." It's a different standard than what we might normally be used to.

Of course, I'm just speculating. But if he does come out with a book, you guys should ask for researchers' fees.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/18/2005 22:50:31
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2005 :  23:12:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by me

On December 21st, they might climb as "high" as 11° above the northern horizon...
I blew the math on this one. The Sun only gets as high as 37° at noon in Cairo on the winter solstice, meaning any rainbow produced would only rise as high as 5° above the northern horizon.

Assuming a linear relationship between time-of-year and height of the Sun at noon (because I don't know the real relationship), one can only hope to see a rainbow at noon in Cairo for 40 days of the year: between December 1st and January 10th. On any other day of the year, the Sun rises too high in the sky.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2005 :  08:29:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
But spare me the drama of your crusade!
Are you sure it's a crusade? If I were a betting man, I would guess that serendipitypublishing wishes to put a book out on these related posts soon. (Something regarding an early civilization far more advanced than previously speculated.) I would further wager that his goal isn't proving any of the contentions he'll raise (when do they ever try?), but rather, to make his tale convincing enough to make a few believers and turn a few bucks. I think he's just making sure he's not claiming anything impossible or simplisticly stupid. (For certain he'll have to drop his upsidedown rainbow now). The rest... just has to remain in the realm of "possible." It's a different standard than what we might normally be used to.

Of course, I'm just speculating. But if he does come out with a book, you guys should ask for researchers' fees.


I think you might be on to something. But really-- it takes two minutes to Google a picture of Leo or Virgo or whatever, and they just don't look like the images that he's drawn on the disc. (And yes, the "rainbow" obviously isn't a rainbow.) Even if I charged a hundred bucks an hour, my "research" wouldn't cost that much, so I'll waive my fees...
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend

60 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2005 :  02:44:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit serendipitypublishing's Homepage Send serendipitypublishing a Private Message
quote:
Assuming a linear relationship between time-of-year and height of the Sun at noon (because I don't know the real relationship), one can only hope to see a rainbow at noon in Cairo for 40 days of the year: between December 1st and January 10th. On any other day of the year, the Sun rises too high in the sky.


Thanks for the analysis. That was interesting about the mathematics of the rainbow.

quote:
Plus, if it's a sky map, the rainbow is upside-down. The ends of its arc should be on the horizon, always


This is true. I hadn´t thought about that. Unless it´s only depicting the western and eastern horizon using the gold rims, making it easier to map objects to these 2 frames of references ?? Otherwise using the whole circumference of the disc as the horizon it would be difficult to map. So the observer would be standing on the banks of the Nile and looking to the east and west only to determine the phase of flooding. This then would allow the rainbow to be used as it is shown but we may still have a problem with the maths. Unless, 5 degrees is sufficient to make the rainbow visible ??

I googled about rainbows appearing on the Nile and found a few quotes suggesting that they were important in ancient Egyptian times but it´s difficult to know what´s valid and what´s not on the web.

I was wondering whether DUAA may be able to help as he is from Egypt. Duaa, Are there any myths related to rainbows and the end of the annual flooding of the Nile ? Do you see rainbows only at certain times of the year in Cairo ?

I found this for example translated from old texts :

quote:
The Nile

floods, recedes, floods. And over us stretches Nut, the goddess who is the sky. The sun travels by night through her body, the moon and stars by day. Her toes touch the east, her fingers reach to the west, she arches over us, rainbow mother of night and day.




I know it doesn´t suggest much but it´s just example to see if there is anything else ?

quote:
It's important to note that you'll never see an atmospheric rainbow when the Sun is more than 42° high in the sky


Is it possible that it´s not an atmospheric rainbow but instead one created by a man made lake such as that of a dam ? With the mist rising after the rains stop forming a rainbow. Again, lots of speculating, need more evidence.

I´m glad to meet a real skeptic friend. Someone whose critisms actually help because they are founded on knowledge in a non bias attempt to prove or disprove an idea. Being open minded is the real key to skeptism it seems. Shouting about something only seems to be a defence against an assumption, which some of you are making quite wildly. Should skeptism be based on assumptions or facts ? I think it´s facts.


'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/
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