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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2005 :  09:04:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by David Mc

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=2&u=/ap/20050224/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman

There's a video link on this page as well. Brain dead? or Brain damaged? Doesn't look brain dead to me.

Plus, there was no Living Will. Only her husband's word that she did not want to be kept alive.

The courts, by default, could have to order Terri's "death" even though there's no crime involved. Hollywood could not have written a more bizarre situation.


Well, there are two photos on the article of the woman herself, both with her mother. From the photos I can't derive whether she is brain dead or not, hard to tell. On photo 25 of the slide show she definitely looks either asleep or brain dead. On photo 1 her facial features are harder to see. The mouth hanging slightly opened as well as the opened eyes can mean a number of things, brain dead amongst them. As far as I know, brain dead =/= closed eyes.
Furthermore, the accompanying text with the slide show mentions that in 2004 she head been in a vegetative state for 13 years, which would mean that she is also in such a state on the first photo, which was taken in 2001. In my opinion, there is nothing to conclude from either the photos or the article, that she is in anything else but a vegetative state.

The ordering of Terris 'death', if you could call it such, is not bizarre in any way. Medical personel and equipment is better spend then on trying to keep the dead alive, in my opinion.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2005 :  09:19:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by David Mc

There's a video link on this page as well. Brain dead? or Brain damaged? Doesn't look brain dead to me.


I watched the video. She looks responsive. So what? I am not a doctor. I am certainly not her doctor. Are you?

quote:
Originally posted by David Mc

Plus, there was no Living Will. Only her husband's word that she did not want to be kept alive.

What twenty-six-year-old has a Living Will, or any type of Will for that matter? She was twenty-six! She probably still thought she was going to live forever.

quote:
Originally posted by David Mc

The courts, by default, could have to order Terri's "death" even though there's no crime involved. Hollywood could not have written a more bizarre situation.

Oh, please! Let's not stoop to comparing allowing someone to end a long ordeal with capital punishment. This woman died fifteen years ago. Her parents (and I am a parent myself so I DO sympathize) believe she will get better. It's been FIFTEEN YEARS. She's not going to get better.

Easy for me to say and very hard for them to do, but it's time to let go.

(edited for spelling)

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
Edited by - Wendy on 02/24/2005 09:21:59
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2005 :  10:10:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by David Mc

Doesn't look brain dead to me.
The flippant arrogance of this statement is jaw-droppingly astounding when compared to the complex horrors of the situation to which it refers.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2005 :  10:46:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by David Mc

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=2&u=/ap/20050224/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman

There's a video link on this page as well. Brain dead? or Brain damaged? Doesn't look brain dead to me.

Plus, there was no Living Will. Only her husband's word that she did not want to be kept alive.

The courts, by default, could have to order Terri's "death" even though there's no crime involved. Hollywood could not have written a more bizarre situation.



I'll have to rely on the majority opinion of the medical personnel involved. She has no living cells in her cerebral cortex. What you are seeing is reflex motion, not cognitave function.

The courts have ruled, but whenever it doesn't go the parents way, they venue shop to get another stay. The Florida Supreme Court has ruled. Unless they go to SCOTUS, they shouldn't be able to persue this.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2005 :  10:56:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by David Mc

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=2&u=/ap/20050224/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman

There's a video link on this page as well. Brain dead? or Brain damaged? Doesn't look brain dead to me.

Ah, found the video link also. From the footage she certainly seems responsive. So I searched a little further and found this link on coma, which is quite interesting and short.

Indeed, the person may show eye movement and even body movement. He/she may even laugh or cry at random moments. From my knowledge on the brain, the intactness of the brain stem may be able to explain this. So this is one of the first things to note, the person in a coma is not brain dead. Indeed, the brain stem is very much alive and is undamaged. However, he/she has lost higher brain functions like personality and consciousness. In the case here, probably Terri Schiavo has no consciousness or personality. These functions are lost. The chances of her recovering seem highly unlikely, as she has been in a comatoze state for at least 15 years. From what I can gather, recovery is not common after 2 to 3 months in a coma, let alone 15 years. Furthermore, from what I can gather, the video was shot 4 years ago, in 2001. Conditions may well have worsened since then.

From what I can gather, she probably hasn't got a consciousness or personality anymore. She is not dead, she is not brain dead, but she is dead in every other meaning of the word.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2005 :  10:57:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send David Mc a Private Message
I can't blame her parents for wanting every last possible chance.
---
Great link Tom... Thanks
Edited by - David Mc on 02/24/2005 11:00:40
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2005 :  11:01:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by David Mc

I can't blame her parents for wanting every last possible chance.


I can't either, but at some time you have to let go. Mercy is not in what you want yourself, and I don't think keeping her 'alive' longer is mercyful in any way.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2005 :  11:03:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send David Mc a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by David Mc

Doesn't look brain dead to me.
The flippant arrogance of this statement is jaw-droppingly astounding when compared to the complex horrors of the situation to which it refers.

It was an honest statement.
Is it impossible for you to be anything but insulting?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2005 :  11:31:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by David Mc

I can't blame her parents for wanting every last possible chance.
Do you agree that false hopes are no hope at all?
quote:
It was an honest statement.
I didn't say it wasn't honest, I found it to be disgustingly simple-minded.
quote:
Is it impossible for you to be anything but insulting?
In this thread, I find your attitude to be abhorrent. Even if I were one of Terri's parents, I believe I would consider your "honest statement" to be utterly lacking in any understanding of the situation. As a parent and a spouse, and even as a human being who is capable of empathy, I find you, sir, to be insulting.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2005 :  15:10:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Reflex movements are not indicative of consciousness but the parents believe it is and they insists others believe as well by showing the videos instead of the medical information. None of us can judge by the videos.

It is sad that the parents feel they are not in control over such an important matter. But society has decided the husband is to decide. Someone has to be in the position of decision maker because you will always have cases where there are disagreements between close kin over this sort of decision. Your kids grow up, they leave the nest, their new family becomes their center not the one they left. (Extended families excluded).

My sister-in-law's mother and a couple of her many friends also pulled up every rare recovery cases of persons in comas. I did the same and discussed them all with my brother. He waited until there was absolutely no chance of things changing. He says he feels very lucky his wife didn't end up like Terri S.

But one of the things we found consistently with all the cases of recovery from comas was less than 1% of those extremely rare recoveries were after cardiac arrest led to the brain death. The damage from 10 minutes of cardiac arrest on the brain leaves one with almost no hope of ever recovering brain function. Free radicals are released from damaged cells when circulation returns and they do even more damage. Hypothermia is the one thing that protects the brain from these free radicals. Cold water drownings lead to increased survival not only because they slow the brain down enough to allow it to survive without O2 but also because hypothermia does more to protect the brain from these free radicals. Trouble with cardiac arrest is you can't cool the brain down fast enough before circulation is re-established.

My sister-in-law had 10 minutes of CPR before the aid crew arrived with the defibrillator. It didn't make much difference and only 5% of out of hospital arrests will recover any brain function after 10 minutes even with CPR. That is just how damaging cardiac arrest is on the brain.
Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/24/2005 15:11:51
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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2005 :  20:19:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
I have mixed feelings on this case, and about this issue in general--an issue which I think might become increasingly common as we develop the ability to prolong "life" (using the word "life" loosely.)

It's easier to be logical, scientific, or even clinical about coma when it isn't *your* loved one in a coma. It's also easier to cling to hope, false or real, when faced with watching your child starve to death.

I tend to err on the side of quality of life rather than quantity of life...but I'm not fully comfortable with all aspects of euthanasia, either.

The right decision should be the most compassionate decision, but that's not a clear distinction, is it?

My heart aches for Terri's parents.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2005 :  21:18:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Renae

I have mixed feelings on this case, and about this issue in general--an issue which I think might become increasingly common as we develop the ability to prolong "life" (using the word "life" loosely.)

It's easier to be logical, scientific, or even clinical about coma when it isn't *your* loved one in a coma. It's also easier to cling to hope, false or real, when faced with watching your child starve to death.

I tend to err on the side of quality of life rather than quantity of life...but I'm not fully comfortable with all aspects of euthanasia, either.

The right decision should be the most compassionate decision, but that's not a clear distinction, is it?

My heart aches for Terri's parents.

Yes. It is a terrible decision to face. It breaks the heart whichever side of the issue upon one stands. We will be blessed, thee and me, if we never be called upon to make it.

Which is why I have taken the decision out of my family's hands, if I should ever come to such an estate. I would not give them that further grief which would ultimitly divide the family beyond reconcilation.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2005 :  00:32:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
The courts, by default, could have to order Terri's "death" even though there's no crime involved. Hollywood could not have written a more bizarre situation.


If the christian hell were a reality, then I'd hope there is a special place reserved in it for those of you who are without mercy for your fellow human beings. You, and all like you, disgust me.

quote:
Doesn't look brain dead to me.


Now you compound arrogance, lack of mecry, and ignorance.

If a person were 100% braindead, they would be unable to sustain basic autonomic functions, like breathing and a heartbeat.

Also, there are many neural pathways that never reach the brain. They exist only between the spinal cord and peripheral nerves. The reflexive withdrawl from pain being one.

......<stopping here because I had to erase the last paragraph, twice, because I just want to rant and cuss>......


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2005 :  06:18:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Damn kinda emotional in here....

Personally I think most brain-alive people should have the plug pulled,
I guess im just a heartless bastard, overpopulation is bad enough without keeping the braindead around.

I wonder how many mosquito nets or flu shots could be purchased with the money they used to keep her alive for 15 years.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 02/25/2005 06:19:01
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2005 :  06:43:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Damn kinda emotional in here....

Personally I think most brain-alive people should have the plug pulled,
I guess im just a heartless bastard, overpopulation is bad enough without keeping the braindead around.

I wonder how many mosquito nets or flu shots could be purchased with the money they used to keep her alive for 15 years.

Or how many chickens it might have put in a soup kitchen's pot. Or blankets at the shelters.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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