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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
 Posted - 03/04/2005 : 09:38:56 [Permalink]
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| Hey, all this talk of robots recalled me Isaac Asimov's I, Robot - a book I've just finished reading, and great book at that. It's a collection of short stories about robots. In one of them, a robot develops a religion mania - he doesn't believe humans made them! He instead believes he was made by the Master... the space station's main computer. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2005 : 12:57:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by George
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
And Lot said to the town's men, "Here, rape my two daughters, but not these male strangers, for we know women are worthless anyway."
The angles were not "male strangers" to Lot. He, somehow, recognized them for who they were. His bad behavior (offering his daughters) is not defended by anyone I know. The angel's powers to defend them made it clear it was unnecessary to try and compromise.
This is one of the more hurtful distortions you have made of the Bible text yet. So now it's OK for Lot to send his daughters out to be raped by a mob, why? So he can get more favor with God by caring more about the angels? Because angels are certainly worth the sacrifice of your daughters to a mob? Think about what you are rationalizing here, George.quote:
Originally posted by George
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
"Disobey today and I'll scold you, but if I'm in a bad mood I might just turn you into salt, who knows. I'm certainly not consistent", said god. "And by the way, about those children and babies in Sodom and Gomorrah, lets not put that part in the book, OK?"
There is not enough in the story to be able to judge God's judgement regarding Lot's wife (there never could be, IMO). Yet, there are very few instances where angels became so directly involved with man. Refusing to heed their few commands warrants consequences. If we ignore a small red light at an intersection, do we not, at times, suffer major consequences? Is it God's fault if a child is injured in such cases? I won't argue with you as to how horrible the punishment was, but we will likely never agree on - "was it justified?". [Is my grammar close here?]
In other words, if the Bible doesn't make sense, make something up. Why wouldn't god have wanted to write a clear story? Why bother telling the story at all then?quote:
Originally posted by George
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
The point isn't who God forgives, it's that asking forgiveness is more important that not 'sinning' in the first place.
That is the ultimate point. Forgivness wins over judgement. Otherwise, none would have a chance as we have all blown any hope of earning an entrance into heaven (obviously, some more than others). God has every right to insist on perfection if works are the rule. Fortunately, it is not. Love is not temporal, it conquers death with the instrument of grace through faith. Faith itself is a gift from Love.
George, this is the typical made up interpretation of what is really in the Bible. The Bible does not say any of this. Instead, these are rationalizations claimed to be interpretations.
quote:
Originally posted by George
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Which is is, works or belief? What do you mean works influence favor? No they don't. Is BTK going to 'lower' heaven? Is Mother Teresa better off in heaven than the BTKs? What, she has more gold on her doorknobs?
If you had never been to a concert, you might say getting a ticket is all that is needed to get in. However, once you are there, some seats are better than others. We don't know what honors might be bestowed on Mother Teresa and others.
So where in the Bible does it say Mother Teresa gets a better deal in heaven? There's a lot of stuff like the meek inheriting the Earth. Where does it say do good works and get a better deal in heaven? (I'm not saying it isn't in there, I'd like to read how it is stated.) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2005 : 13:23:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by George
If it is "punishment", you have an argument. God will be quite capable of defending His actions, IMO.
However, not every negative aspect in live is a direct intervention.
Weren't we talking about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?quote:
If a robot mfg. builds a robot with A.I., which then acts destructively, what do they do with it? What rights does the robot have, really?
A poor analogy. If a person builds robots with AI and then faults them for not "perfectly" doing "good works" (by whatever standard the programmer had in mind), that'd be a good analogy.quote:
Of course, the robot(s) can argue it was the creator's poor software.
And with my analogy, they would be correct.quote:
The programers could have written code to prevent any "free will" thinking. If we add this to the analogy, then this would render mankind no better than other life forms, however. Our ability to do good and evil, at our level, makes us god-like. We are special.
This isn't about "free will," it's about the argument that if the Christian God were to judge us upon the basis of our "good works," perfection is an unreasonable demand to make of a knowingly imperfect creation. You argued, however, that it would be the only standard acceptable to God. I believe that argument to be theologically unsound, as it turns God into a horrible tyrant, and it also limits what God can or cannot do (an act of hubris on your part).quote:
Scripture alone is not enough by design, IMO. [I wonder if we would be robots if it did?] This is a difficult issue. When I came very close to the Lord, I wanted to do everything exactly as I was suppose to. "Just tell me what I'm suppose to do, and I'll do it" (to prove my value, I suppose),that was my prayer. It bombed. The heart comes first. The disciples died because they were willing to risk death to stand-up for Him, not due to any order, but due to love.
Oh, I understand that part, I just can't come to grips with the idea of a diety which would demand that we live up to some sort of standard (and if we fail, we're doomed for eternity), but not tell us what that standard is. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2005 : 16:24:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Hey, all this talk of robots recalled me Isaac Asimov's I, Robot - a book I've just finished reading, and great book at that. It's a collection of short stories about robots. In one of them, a robot develops a religion mania - he doesn't believe humans made them! He instead believes he was made by the Master... the space station's main computer.
I think of that particular novel every single time I'm debating fundies(tm).
Extremely distant huge balls of burning gas? Nah, it's just a wall with some lights on it...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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George
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2005 : 22:46:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by George
The angles were not "male strangers" to Lot. He, somehow, recognized them for who they were. His bad behavior (offering his daughters) is not defended by anyone I know. The angel's powers to defend them made it clear it was unnecessary to try and compromise.
This is one of the more hurtful distortions you have made of the Bible text yet. So now it's OK for Lot to send his daughters out to be raped by a mob, why?
I was saying just the opposite. It was not ok to offer his daughters up. However, the point is Lot would not have offered his daughters if he did not place some exceptional value on these two strangers. His offer is further evidence that he recognized them for being something special.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Why wouldn't god have wanted to write a clear story? Why bother telling the story at all then?
That is a great question. You could do a dozen threads on hermanutics with that one.
quote:
Originally posted by George
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Which is is, works or belief? What do you mean works influence favor? No they don't. Is BTK going to 'lower' heaven? Is Mother Teresa better off in heaven than the BTKs? What, she has more gold on her doorknobs?
If you had never been to a concert, you might say getting a ticket is all that is needed to get in. However, once you are there, some seats are better than others. We don't know what honors might be bestowed on Mother Teresa and others.
quote:
So where in the Bible does it say Mother Teresa gets a better deal in heaven? There's a lot of stuff like the meek inheriting the Earth. Where does it say do good works and get a better deal in heaven? (I'm not saying it isn't in there, I'd like to read how it is stated.)
There is a passage that talks about receiving jewels in heaven for good deeds. I'll have time tomorrow to find it if you really need it. Maybe someone else knows this one and some others. Good deeds were always important, however. Often good things happened to those who were honorable. Abigail is just one example, as she helped David and her husband. He later married her when she became a widow.
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| Edited by - George on 03/05/2005 22:47:41 |
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George
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2005 : 23:23:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
This isn't about "free will," it's about the argument that if the Christian God were to judge us upon the basis of our "good works," perfection is an unreasonable demand to make of a knowingly imperfect creation.
Or you could say an impossible demand. However, Adam and Eve may have been once "perfect". Their deliberate and knowing act of disobedience brought consequences. This is a tough topic as many, if not most, religions favor works over faith.
quote:
You argued, however, that it would be the only standard acceptable to God. I believe that argument to be theologically unsound, as it turns God into a horrible tyrant, and it also limits what God can or cannot do (an act of hubris on your part).
I was talking of His judgement only, not his Love and Grace. Considering the number of stars (130 billion galaxies) now being observed by the Hubble Telescope (about the # of grains of sand on every beach), is it unreasonable to assume He might select only a few from each, people who are the best of the best (e.g. Mother Teresa)? How much imperfection should He accept based on works alone? The Christian message of God offering His only Son as a sacrifice for our acts of imperfections overrides judgement for Love.
quote:
I just can't come to grips with the idea of a diety which would demand that we live up to some sort of standard (and if we fail, we're doomed for eternity), but not tell us what that standard is.
It can be seen as even worse. It is believed Adam's failure, and rejection from Eden, separated all mankind from God. Faith in Christ is the bridge and the Christian message, of course. We were orphaned and now adopted (by faith, not works).
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2005 : 12:53:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by George
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
...This is one of the more hurtful distortions you have made of the Bible text yet. So now it's OK for Lot to send his daughters out to be raped by a mob, why?
I was saying just the opposite. It was not ok to offer his daughters up. However, the point is Lot would not have offered his daughters if he did not place some exceptional value on these two strangers. His offer is further evidence that he recognized them for being something special.
I gather from this exchange you have decided on a remote possibility as your chosen explanation for this story. I say 'chosen' because as happens over and over with what the Bible text actually says, the Christian response is to assume there must be a good explanation, based on what the church teaches, not based on what the Bible says. For everything in the Bible text that doesn't fit with what the church teaches, the church just changes what is written supposedly to 'explain what is meant'.
One could change what is written to make several different interpretations. How about this one? God resents women, was sorry he ever made them because they compete with his desire to have all the affection men have to offer. So God favors those that treat women like pieces of property. Since Lot sees his daughters as property Lot can offer to 'pay off' the mob with them.
Why is your version any more valid than mine? The text is what it is. The version of 'god is love' and all the junk the Christian religion claims is not in the Bible.
quote:
Originally posted by Georgequote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Why wouldn't god have wanted to write a clear story? Why bother telling the story at all then?
That is a great question. You could do a dozen threads on hermanutics with that one.
Well, I'll offer one explanation. All of what is in the Bible originates from a somewhat homogeneous population which migrated out of Africa like everyone else, bringing their traditions and beliefs with them. The Bible is a collection of mythological stories passed down from generation to generation verbally before being written.
There is strong evidence for this version of events. Many of the myths including some from the New testament like the virgin birth have correlations to very ancient African myths. Just as language can be mapped as migration follows language evolution when populations separate, so too can the myths often be traced back along migration routes and the evolution of myths can be seen.
The Bible is inconsistent. Many of the stories are vague. When it was written there were several versions of some of the stories. Some of those dual versions were actually incorporated into a single text which explains why there are two different genesis stories in Genesis.
As religion, in this case the Christian religion, evolved so too did the interpretation of the Bible. The Bible does not contain anything close to what the church claims. Nor did it when it was used as the basis for the Crusades, for witch burning, for bestowing power on the Kings and Queens of Europe, for condemning gays in America, and so on. All the church needs to do is change the interpretation of whatever vague Bible quote can be stretched to fit the bill and away you go.
quote:
Originally posted by George
There is a passage that talks about receiving jewels in heaven for good deeds. I'll have time tomorrow to find it if you really need it. Maybe someone else knows this one and some others. Good deeds were always important, however. Often good things happened to those who were honorable. Abigail is just one example, as she helped David and her husband. He later married her when she became a widow.
I couldn't find anything like it on the Bible Gateway search engine. There were some references to "reward is in heaven" but it isn't clear whether it means heaven is the reward or something else is to be given once there. Seems to me since in heaven one is supposed to be blissfully happy, not jealous nor envious, that anything 'extra' would be a contradiction. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2005 : 19:35:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by George
Or you could say an impossible demand.
Indeed, impossible demands are unreasonable.quote:
However, Adam and Eve may have been once "perfect". Their deliberate and knowing act of disobedience brought consequences.
I find it hard to believe that a "deliberate and knowing act of disobedience" which has allegedly brought eternal sorrow to billions of people could be perpetrated by someone who is "perfect." How is it that you reconcile these ideas?quote:
This is a tough topic as many, if not most, religions favor works over faith.
I'm pretty sure we're focused upon your religion right now, whatever particular sub-set of Christianity that may be.quote:
I was talking of His judgement only, not his Love and Grace.
Doesn't much matter. Placing limits on God is forbidden, is it not?quote:
Considering the number of stars (130 billion galaxies) now being observed by the Hubble Telescope (about the # of grains of sand on every beach), is it unreasonable to assume He might select only a few from each, people who are the best of the best (e.g. Mother Teresa)?
You've lost me here, I don't see the connection. On the other hand, there are more than 10 times as many stars in the universe as there are grains of sand on the world's beaches.quote:
How much imperfection should He accept based on works alone? The Christian message of God offering His only Son as a sacrifice for our acts of imperfections overrides judgement for Love.
With many Christians, it's not the works themselves which are important, but the intent of the person performing those works. Someone volunteering at a soup kitchen but thinking "I hate God for making me do this" - were I God - wouldn't be having a good time after death. However, I'm also well aware that there are plenty of "faith alone" folks out there who believe that no sin is too large for God so long as you love Jesus, meaning that there exist serial rapists who'll escape Hell. "Faith alone" seems to me to be a "get out of jail free" card for Christians who'd like to avoid making an effort at emulating Jesus.
quote:
It can be seen as even worse. It is believed Adam's failure, and rejection from Eden, separated all mankind from God. Faith in Christ is the bridge and the Christian message, of course. We were orphaned and now adopted (by faith, not works).
Also, I'm aware that there exist extremist Christians who believe that everyone mentioned in the Bible who died before the birth of Jesus is rotting in Hell, including Moses. They simply had no chance of redemption, since the Redeemer did not yet exist. At least a few of these people are waiting for interstallar travel so they can spread the Word to aliens, all of whom are also being thrown into a lake of fire, since Jesus only existed on Earth, and no other planets have heard of him.
Out of curiosity, where do you stand on these issues? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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geenamac
New Member
Afghanistan
1 Post |
Posted - 03/06/2005 : 20:29:15 [Permalink]
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Howdy All...I'm new here, fascinated by this topic of the religiosity of the confessed
BTK killer. Let me ask how you all feel: assuming ther IS a heaven, will the BTK killer
be there???? Interested in your replies...
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2005 : 02:40:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by geenamac
BTK killer. Let me ask how you all feel: assuming ther IS a heaven, will the BTK killer
be there???? Interested in your replies...
Welcome to SFN geenamac!
I'm not sure how to answer your question. If we assume that there is a heaven, it will all depend on what we assume this place to be.
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2005 : 02:56:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Howdy All...I'm new here, fascinated by this topic of the religiosity of the confessed
BTK killer. Let me ask how you all feel: assuming ther IS a heaven, will the BTK killer
be there???? Interested in your replies...
You are aware that the large majority of the posters here are either agnostic or atheist, right?
Also, most (even many of those who are not atheist/agnostic) are fairly serious skeptics.
In order to answer your question, we have to grant you a long list of premises (god exists, afterlife exists, human consciousness survives the death of the body, etc... quite a long list).
Most won't grant you these premises.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2005 : 03:55:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by geenamac
Howdy All...I'm new here, fascinated by this topic of the religiosity of the confessed
BTK killer. Let me ask how you all feel: assuming ther IS a heaven, will the BTK killer
be there???? Interested in your replies...
Hi new person. 
If there were a heaven, and if the Bible had the information needed to answer this question, I'd say the guy could get through the gates. He probably will be convinced he's not at fault for whatever reason he rationalizes, therefore he would likely be sincere when he asks for his religious forgiveness and that's all that matters.
After all, the god of the Bible kills randomly all the time if you believe he's in control of things. Why should God care if someone else does the same as long as that someone pays the appropriate attention to worshiping God.
Sorry, George. I know I sound cynical. I don't mean anything personal by it. |
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George
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2005 : 17:03:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by George
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
...This is one of the more hurtful distortions you have made of the Bible text yet. So now it's OK for Lot to send his daughters out to be raped by a mob, why?
I was saying just the opposite. It was not ok to offer his daughters up. However, the point is Lot would not have offered his daughters if he did not place some exceptional value on these two strangers. His offer is further evidence that he recognized them for being something special.
I gather from this exchange you have decided on a remote possibility as your chosen explanation for this story. I say 'chosen' because as happens over and over with what the Bible text actually says, the Christian response is to assume there must be a good explanation, based on what the church teaches, not based on what the Bible says. For everything in the Bible text that doesn't fit with what the church teaches, the church just changes what is written supposedly to 'explain what is meant'.
One could change what is written to make several different interpretations. How about this one? God resents women, was sorry he ever made them because they compete with his desire to have all the affection men have to offer. So God favors those that treat women like pieces of property. Since Lot sees his daughters as property Lot can offer to 'pay off' the mob with them.
Why is your version any more valid than mine? The text is what it is. The version of 'god is love' and all the junk the Christian religion claims is not in the Bible.
quote:
Originally posted by Georgequote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Why wouldn't god have wanted to write a clear story? Why bother telling the story at all then?
That is a great question. You could do a dozen threads on hermanutics with that one.
Well, I'll offer one explanation. All of what is in the Bible originates from a somewhat homogeneous population which migrated out of Africa like everyone else, bringing their traditions and beliefs with them. The Bible is a collection of mythological stories passed down from generation to generation verbally before being written.
There is strong evidence for this version of events. Many of the myths including some from the New testament like the virgin birth have correlations to very ancient African myths. Just as language can be mapped as migration follows language evolution when populations separate, so too can the myths often be traced back along migration routes and the evolution of myths can be seen.
The Bible is inconsistent. Many of the stories are vague. When it was written there were several versions of some of the stories. Some of those dual versions were actually incorporated into a single text which explains why there are two different genesis stories in Genesis.
As religion, in this case the Christian religion, evolved so too did the interpretation of the Bible. The Bible does not contain anything close to what the church claims. Nor did it when it was used as the basis for the Crusades, for witch burning, for bestowing power on the Kings and Queens of Europe, for condemning gays in America, and so on. All the church needs to do is change the interpretation of whatever vague Bible quote can be stretched to fit the bill and away you go.
quote:
Originally posted by George
There is a passage that talks about receiving jewels in heaven for good deeds. I'll have time tomorrow to find it if you really need it. Maybe someone else knows this one and some others. Good deeds were always important, however. Often good things happened to those who were honorable. Abigail is just one example, as she helped David and her husband. He later married her when she became a widow.
I couldn't find anything like it on the Bible Gateway search engine. There were some references to "reward is in heaven" but it isn't clear whether it means heaven is the reward or something else is to be given once there. Seems to me since in heaven one is supposed to be blissfully happy, not jealous nor envious, that anything 'extra' would be a contradiction.
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George
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2005 : 18:20:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I find it hard to believe that a "deliberate and knowing act of disobedience" which has allegedly brought eternal sorrow to billions of people could be perpetrated by someone who is "perfect." How is it that you reconcile these ideas?
Good point. Apparently, they weren't designed to be beyond yielding to temptation.
quote:
quote:
This is a tough topic as many, if not most, religions favor works over faith.
I'm pretty sure we're focused upon your religion right now, whatever particular sub-set of Christianity that may be.
IMO, both works and faith go hand in hand. In a horse and cart simile (or is it a metaphor?), I see faith as the horse and works as the cart. I belive most protestant Christianity would see it so, as well. I am unsure how Catholicisim sees it.
quote:
quote:
I was talking of His judgement only, not his Love and Grace.
Doesn't much matter. Placing limits on God is forbidden, is it not?
How does God being a judge, and one who extends grace, limit Him?
quote:
quote:
Considering the number of stars (130 billion galaxies) now being observed by the Hubble Telescope (about the # of grains of sand on every beach), is it unreasonable to assume He might select only a few from each, people who are the best of the best (e.g. Mother Teresa)?
You've lost me here, I don't see the connection.
The number of pets we allow in our house is quite limited. We are all pretty selective based on availability. What if God has enormous availability of wonderful life forms to choose from? We can argue with Him about how wonderful we really are and how it's His doing in the first place. If He presents powerful arguments against this logic, what then? I'm not saying I believe this is so, in fact, I believe the contrary is true. He has already made up His mind to exend His Grace to us. However, I am basing it on a relationship rather than works alone.
quote:
On the other hand, there are more than 10 times as many stars in the universe as there are grains of sand on the world's beaches.
Your reference did not show the calculation. But I favor your sum over mine.
There are numerous comparisons. Probably every case will show that stars will equal, or more likely outnumber the no. of grains of sand on every beach. stars to sands
more here
quote:
quote:
How much imperfection should He accept based on works alone? The Christian message of God offering His only Son as a sacrifice for our acts of imperfections overrides judgement for Love.
With many Christians, it's not the works themselves which are important, but the intent of the person performing those works. Someone volunteering at a soup kitchen but thinking "I hate God for making me do this" - were I God - wouldn't be having a good time after death. However, I'm also well aware that there are plenty of "faith alone" folks out there who believe that no sin is too large for God so long as you love Jesus, meaning that there exist serial rapists who'll escape Hell. "Faith alone" seems to me to be a "get out of jail free" card for Christians who'd like to avoid making an effort at emulating Jesus.
You are probably right. I suspect many people in jail will play any card they can find (probably none have a full deck [pun intended]). Hopefully, others there will actually have a change of heart.
I think your point regarding the intent of the heart is critical to determination of true faith vs. a fake faith. If we could determine everyone's true intent about everything, we could pass much better judgement on others.
FWIW, I do not belive murderers, etc., are likely candidates for trusting their life to anyone else, including Christ. Aren't these acts done with extreme selfishness? How can one be completely self-centered and have someone else on their "throne"? Their acts alone reveal their heart. However, I do belive there are exceptions. Some prisoners do give up their throne to Christ. But, saying it does not make it so.
quote:
quote:
It can be seen as even worse. It is believed Adam's failure, and rejection from Eden, separated all mankind from God. Faith in Christ is the bridge and the Christian message, of course. We were orphaned and now adopted (by faith, not works).
Also, I'm aware that there exist extremist Christians who believe that everyone mentioned in the Bible who died before the birth of Jesus is rotting in Hell, including Moses. They simply had no chance of redemption, since the Redeemer did not yet exist. At least a few of these people are waiting for interstallar travel so they can spread the Word to aliens, all of whom are also being thrown into a lake of fire, since Jesus only existed on Earth, and no other planets have heard of him.
Out of curiosity, where do you stand on these issues?
I am not a theologian (in case you haven't gueesed). FWIW, I do not know any of these extremists. IMO, the Old Testament dealt with mankind as he was back then, yet, God's forgiveness plan (His Son's sacrifice) was working for these folks, too. If not in name (Jesus), then, in spirit. We (not me much) now understand better this concept of time. Spacetime presents no restrictions for God, IMO. His view of the future is, probably, |
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George
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2005 : 18:51:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by geenamac
Howdy All...I'm new here, fascinated by this topic of the religiosity of the confessed
BTK killer. Let me ask how you all feel: assuming ther IS a heaven, will the BTK killer
be there???? Interested in your replies...
Welcome.
IMO, a BTK killer has a "lead ballon" heart. It ain't goin' up, it's goin down.
However, I do belive some exceptions exist. Although I rarely see people actually change, God does extend His grace to all. "God does not roll dice" (honoring Einstein this year when I can ). I am saying that those in prison can have His attention and grace as much as anyone. [Hope I have more luck with the phrase than Einstein did ] However, there is a probability that those that have hardened their hearts are far less likely to accept Christ. It is man that shoots craps.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
If there were a heaven, and if the Bible had the information needed to answer this question, I'd say the guy could get through the gates. He probably will be convinced he's not at fault for whatever reason he rationalizes, therefore he would likely be sincere when he asks for his religious forgiveness and that's all that matters.
After all, the god of the Bible kills randomly all the time if you believe he's in control of things. Why should God care if someone else does the same as long as that someone pays the appropriate attention to worshiping God.
Sorry, George. I know I sound cynical. I don't mean anything personal by it.
Yeah. But what do you really think
If there were no evil in the world, I might agree. Life is choices. Bad choices often precipitate bad consequences. I believe evil hates God and will use anything to accuse Him falsely. Love doesn't demand worship, it seeks a mutually constructive relationship. Yet, God likely expects to be God. Too often we want to treat him like a vending machine - we pay, or pray, to get something we want.
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