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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
 Posted - 03/01/2005 : 15:28:19
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Okay, so Creationists claims have worked like this:
- Mutations are not beneficial (proven false)
- Mutations don't add information (proven false)
- Mutations don't add NEW information
This last claim of theirs is rather interesting, because like with the Nylon Bug, it adds information, not NEW information. That being said they've run to this now of there being now mutation that adds NEW information.
So are there examples of this? Again, it is NEW information, not just added information.
tk
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 15:40:52 [Permalink]
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I'm not sure I understand the difference between "new" information and "added" information.
By some definition, any information added can be argued to be new. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 15:45:19 [Permalink]
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I'd say that the Nylon Bug is an example of new information.
It is an extra base-pair that completely changes the protein coding.
Old information is discarded, and new information is inserted.
What is information anyway? Unless all involved in the discussion can agree of a common definition of "information", the term is meaningless. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 16:05:16 [Permalink]
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| And the old information does not have to be discarded either. A hypothetical gene duplication followed by whatever mutation tickles your fantasy in one of the copies, and TADA - we have "old" and "new" information. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Plyss
Skeptic Friend
Netherlands
231 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 16:40:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tkster
So are there examples of this? Again, it is NEW information, not just added information.
tk
Considering Nylon didn't exist prior to 1935 there is little reason to assume any specific Nylon-degrading enzyme existed before that time.
Of course, this is impossible to prove, as anything might have existed before there were people around to record it. It just isn't a very likely scenario and all the evidence points in the direction that the nylon bug contains new information. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 16:45:41 [Permalink]
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Mab almost hit on the right point to make in this discussion, which is that the only people you'll hear talking about a "law of conservation" with regards to "information" in biology are IDists and creationists. As far as I can tell, there are no "laws of information" analogous to the laws of thermodynamics (even though the name "information entropy" was inspired by thermodynamics, but it's a communications measure, not a biological measure).
Anyway, the point is that anyone who claims that only intelligence can create "new information" (which is where the argument in the OP is heading) needs to support their claim. And from what I've heard, every attempt has been based upon an argument from ignorance ("well, can you think of a natural process that creates information? No? Didn't think so, 'cause it doesn't happen."). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 17:36:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Plyss
Considering Nylon didn't exist prior to 1935 there is little reason to assume any specific Nylon-degrading enzyme existed before that time.
Of course, this is impossible to prove, as anything might have existed before there were people around to record it. It just isn't a very likely scenario and all the evidence points in the direction that the nylon bug contains new information.
The really interesting part in the story is that the old digestive was much more efficient than the newly, less evolved and thus less efficient, nylon-digesting enzyme. The thing is, when the mutation occurred, there was such abundance of nylon available that it didn't matter that the efficiency was low. Given enough time, efficiency will increase thanks to mutation and natural selection. It's inevitable. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2005 : 14:33:15 [Permalink]
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New information is added to the genetic codes of organisms all the time. In addition, information is exchanged and shuffled into new combinations which can have drastically different results. An oversimplified explanation is this. Protein gene coding comes in triplet nucleoside base pairs. Certain combinations give you certain proteins. Certain codes start and end protein producing codes, & turn genes off and on. There is a larger structure to the organism that breaks functions into segments so that one function says when to build, another says what to build and yet another says where to put it and so on. The human genome has 3 billion of these base pairs. Any single nucleic acid substitution gives you a new code which may have anything from zero effect to drastic effects depending on where the new combination of nucleic acids are.
So while you can say we only have 4 DNA bases in fixed pair combinations and no new nucleic acids have ever been involved in DNA sequences, you also have an infinite potential for new structures since the genetic code itself has a very large number of combination possibilities and it can also grow in length as a mutation might add a segment of code as well as detach a segment of code.
Finally, mutations occur and can be passed on to offspring with out any selection pressure except the natural selection of merely having offspring. The benefit of lots of genetic diversity as well as two copies of all but our male XY chromosome combinations is that when new environmental encounters occur, someone somewhere will already have a mutation to deal with it. The principle applies to bugs as well. You could have a nylon digestion enzyme emerge before during or after the invention of synthetic nylon.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 03/02/2005 14:33:53 |
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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2005 : 15:22:38 [Permalink]
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Of course, if I am correct about this, isn't all "information" made up of DNA anyway? And DNA is the C,T,G,A coding, so really "NEW" information doesn't exist as it is just added DNA.
My brain isn't working right, so that might not be correct. Correct me if I'm wrong. The reason I ask is because I am setting up some PP presentation because I am seriously thinking about debating Hovind next semester and take off during the summer to prepare.
tk |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2005 : 15:56:21 [Permalink]
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aoömdiodamauinaanugrn <--- this is just jibberish, unless you have the decode key. So how would you know if there is information in there or not?
The "real" information is not the DNA-sequence in itself (those are only information-carriers), but the sequence-combinations that produce proteins and enzymes. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2005 : 21:59:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
aoömdiodamauinaanugrn <--- this is just jibberish, unless you have the decode key. So how would you know if there is information in there or not?
The "real" information is not the DNA-sequence in itself (those are only information-carriers), but the sequence-combinations that produce proteins and enzymes.
ditto
And put another way, I can have 26 letter alphabet. If I create a new word using the same 26 letters I still have a new word. The word is the information, the letters are not. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 03/02/2005 22:01:17 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2005 : 04:37:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Of course, if I am correct about this, isn't all "information" made up of DNA anyway? And DNA is the C,T,G,A coding, so really "NEW" information doesn't exist as it is just added DNA.
My brain isn't working right, so that might not be correct. Correct me if I'm wrong. The reason I ask is because I am setting up some PP presentation because I am seriously thinking about debating Hovind next semester and take off during the summer to prepare.
Pretty much what Mab and beskeptigal said.
The sequence of DNA is just letters. They contain information, they are not themselves information.
The nylon bug is a fine example of new information being added. The DNA of this organism contains the information that allows it to utilize nylon as a carbon source. That is unquestionably NEW info, as nylon is a new (relatively speaking) material,, and is entirely synthetic.
If it's not, then we are not using the same definition of the word "information", and there isn't really any point in having a conversation about the word when we aren't using the same definition.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2005 : 05:03:48 [Permalink]
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Talk about grasping at straws.
"Plagiarism! You did not write a new creationist article. You just rearranged the letters of an old one"
"Of course like every other man of intelligence and education I do believe in organic evolution. It surprises me that at this late date such questions should be raised."
-- Woodrow Wilson, 1922 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2005 : 12:39:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
Talk about grasping at straws.
"Plagiarism! You did not write a new creationist article. You just rearranged the letters of an old one"
"Of course like every other man of intelligence and education I do believe in organic evolution. It surprises me that at this late date such questions should be raised."
-- Woodrow Wilson, 1922
 That's funny. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2005 : 17:05:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Of course, if I am correct about this, isn't all "information" made up of DNA anyway? And DNA is the C,T,G,A coding, so really "NEW" information doesn't exist as it is just added DNA.
This might just be nitpicking, but if you are talking about heritable information causing or having the capability to cause phenotypical change, then DNA is not the only form of information. Some viruses use RNA. Misfolded proteins (prions) are known to cause heritable phenotypic change. Same thing goes for methylation patterns. There might be more, but I can't think of them at the top of my head.
As for debating Hovind: GOOD LUCK. But don't assume that having all the facts will win you the debate.
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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