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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 03/25/2005 : 22:56:13
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This discovery is by the same people who had their work distorted by YEC's in the past. Will it turn out to be the same this time?
Check out AIG's take on this: they're even hoping to take the pressure off of the last time they got caught out:
quote:
Not only have more blood cells been found, but also soft, fibrous tissue, and complete blood vessels. The fact that this really is unfossilized soft tissue from a dinosaur is in this instance so obvious to the naked eye that any scepticism directed at the previous discovery is completely #8220;histor
quote:
So will this new evidence cause anyone to stand up and say there#8217;s something funny about the emperor#8217;s clothes? Not likely. Instead, it will almost certainly become an #8220;accepted#8221; phenomenon that even #8220;stretchy#8221; soft tissues must be somehow capable of surviving for millions of years. (Because, after all, we #8220;know#8221; that this specimen is #8220;70 million years old#8221;.) See how it works?
Yeah, and you AIG people take an oath where you promise to throw out any evidence/facts that go against the literal YEC view of the bible before you go and START research! See how that works? And Weiland has the nerve to complain about how close-minded "evolutinists" are?
<continue quote>
quote:
Schweitzer#8217;s mentor, the famous #8220;Dinosaur Jack#8221; Horner (upon whom Sam Neill#8217;s lead character in the Jurassic Park movies was modeled) is already urging museums to consider cracking open some of the bones in their existing dinosaur fossils in the hope of finding more such #8220;Squishosaurus#8221; remains. He is excited about the potential to learn more about dinosaurs, of course. But#8212;nothing about questioning the millions of years#8212;sigh!
Again, more hypocrosy.
At least the "evolutionists" are going to be checking this out, instead of jumping the gun. If, for no other reason, I hope AIG gets nailed with this one as it was last time...not that they'd ever admit it.
Pharyngula article about it, with a notice that The Panda's Thumb will soon have an article about it.
EDIT: On the IIDB forums, someone kept saying: "Read the abstract, read the abstract" since it apparently said:
"Abstract: Soft tissues are preserved within hindlimb elements of Tyrannosaurus rex (Museum of the Rockies specimen 1125). Removal of the mineral phase reveals transparent, flexible, hollow blood vessels containing small round microstructures that can be expressed from the vessels into solution. Some regions of the demineralized bone matrix are highly fibrous, and the matrix possesses elasticity and resilience. Three populations of microstructures have cell-like morphology. Thus, some dinosaurian soft tissues may retain some of their original flexibility, elasticity, and resilience."
Schweitzer M. H., Wittmeyer J. L., Horner J. R. & Toporski J. K. et al. Science,307. 1952 - 1955 (2005).
The poster summarized it up by saying: quote:
The tissues were fossilized to a degree. The scientist removed the minerals with acid. The remaining tissues are flexible and as yet unidentified. Its not like someone found a chunk of T.Rex flesh, perserved under a rock. This is fossilized tissue encased within a fossilized bone encased in stone encased in the earth. Are you truly surprised that the inner most tissue is fossilized to a lesser degree than the rest?
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
Edited by - the_ignored on 03/25/2005 23:06:20
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/26/2005 : 03:33:36 [Permalink]
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There's another thread on this, but whaddahell, it's good enough to support at least two of 'em.
I think that AiG will get laughingstocked again; indeed, I'm looking forward to it. Weiland couldn't wait to run his figuritive mouth on a topic he knows nothing about, per usual (he does that a lot, as do many others). Anyone with any brains at all would hold off until the journals have published the research, then bitch and lie about it.
This is a marvelous discovery and I might put forth the speculation that it is, perhaps, not all that rare in larger, fossil bones. And if found in 70 myo bones, why not in more recent fossils such as those from Megatherium? Or even more ancient like Allosarus or Diplodicus? Or, be still my heart, Dimetrodon! Only now, do we have an inkling of what to look for.
Soft tissue can survive millions of years, sort of. Amazing and wonderful!
Prediction: ICR, who's website seems to have become moribund, will again claim to have discovered completly unfossilized dino bones, probably in Alaska. Alaska again, because these people lack imagination and rely on repetition and the scientific ignorance of their followers. Further prediction: the dingbats who think Jurassic Park is a documentary, or al least dream of it, will be all a'twitter for years!
Edit: Oops! Should'a opened Dave's link. Sorry 'bout that -- got caught up in the heat of the moment. I've been decrypting water-stained, hand-written notes, my own, and writing like a madman for the last several days, and am still a bit bemused by the world outside of the swamps and creeks where I took those notes. What can I tell ya?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 03/26/2005 03:45:27 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 04:43:21 [Permalink]
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Though this is only speculation on my part:
I think the size and thickness of the bone will have a large impact on how likely it will be to find less minaralized tissue. A T-rex thigh bone is huge, and bone is the part of the body that is most dense and thus most resiliant agains the environment (as long as it's not cracked in any place). |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 06:35:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Though this is only speculation on my part:
I think the size and thickness of the bone will have a large impact on how likely it will be to find less minaralized tissue. A T-rex thigh bone is huge, and bone is the part of the body that is most dense and thus most resiliant agains the environment (as long as it's not cracked in any place).
I must agree. However, we have here a new field of research. I think that as methods and techniques become refined, well, who can say what might be discovered?
Like many if not most, I regarded Dr. Schweitzer'S initial discovery as an interesting anomaly -- this one has me gob-smacked! I sincerely hope the museums soon start digging for that sweet, succulent marrow, as it were.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Timgraysr
New Member
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 09:09:12 [Permalink]
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| Mine is simply a quesiion to those that might know, I do not, the following. From my understanding of Genesis scriptures: There was water above and below us before the flood. The ground was a layer over water and the planet was encircled by water. We lived in what could be best describes as a steam room taking in vapor from all the minerals around us. If this were true, would it affect the results of carbon dating and the other methods of dating that we use that do not account for this? |
Tim Gray |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 09:47:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Timgraysr:
Mine is simply a quesiion to those that might know, I do not, the following. From my understanding of Genesis scriptures: There was water above and below us before the flood. The ground was a layer over water and the planet was encircled by water. We lived in what could be best describes as a steam room taking in vapor from all the minerals around us. If this were true, would it affect the results of carbon dating and the other methods of dating that we use that do not account for this?
Well, since there is no evidence to support the supposition that "The ground was a layer over water and the planet was encircled by water", and in fact the available evidence argues against it, then there is no need for carbon dating to account for it. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Plyss
Skeptic Friend
Netherlands
231 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 10:18:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Timgraysr
Mine is simply a quesiion to those that might know, I do not, the following. From my understanding of Genesis scriptures: There was water above and below us before the flood. The ground was a layer over water and the planet was encircled by water. We lived in what could be best describes as a steam room taking in vapor from all the minerals around us. If this were true, would it affect the results of carbon dating and the other methods of dating that we use that do not account for this?
It is my understanding that nuclear decay processes are unaffected by the presence of steam.
Incidentally, for the time span involved in fossilisation i imagine carbon-dating is not the preferred method, as it seems to have an upper limit of 35.000 to 50.000 years. For materials older then this carbon-dating is pretty much useless.
Personally, i've found the notion of a "vapour-canopy" unconvincing considering there is no known mechanism for keeping such a system stable and moving a mass of water downwards in a gravitational field releases high amounts of energy.
Also, a steam-layer around the planet forms a greenhouse system trapping large amounts of heat, not unlike the planet Venus.
I have yet to see a model that depicts the effects of such a canopy, but it seems likely the temperature and pressure at the surface of the earth would be unable to support life as we know it.
Also, because minerals have notoriously low vapour pressures it would seem unlikely the atmosphere would take up vapour "from all the minerals around us." |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 10:29:47 [Permalink]
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Hi Timgraysr, and welcome to our fractious, little hive!
Radiometric dating is not well understood by most laymen. Here is a little on it, starting with an introduction:
quote:
A Christian Perspective
Dr. Roger C. Wiens
941 Estates Drive, Los Alamos, NM 87544
RWiens@Prodigy.Net
[A PDF version of this document is also available.]
Dr. Wiens has a PhD in Physics, with a minor in Geology. His PhD thesis was on isotope ratios in meteorites, including surface exposure dating. He was employed at Caltech's Division of Geological & Planetary Sciences at the time of writing the first edition. He is presently employed in the Space & Atmospheric Sciences Group at the Los Alamos National Laboratory.
First edition 1994; revised version 2002.
Radiometric dating--the process of determining the age of rocks from the decay of their radioactive elements--has been in widespread use for over half a century. There are over forty such techniques, each using a different radioactive element or a different way of measuring them. It has become increasingly clear that these radiometric dating techniques agree with each other and as a whole, present a coherent picture in which the Earth was created a very long time ago. Further evidence comes from the complete agreement between radiometric dates and other dating methods such as counting tree rings or glacier ice core layers. Many Christians have been led to distrust radiometric dating and are completely unaware of the great number of laboratory measurements that have shown these methods to be consistent. Many are also unaware that Bible-believing Christians are among those actively involved in radiometric dating.
This paper describes in relatively simple terms how a number of the dating techniques work, how accurately the half-lives of the radioactive elements and the rock dates themselves are known, and how dates are checked with one another. In the process the paper refutes a number of misconceptions prevalent among Christians today. This paper is available on the web via the American Scientific Affiliation and related sites to promote greater understanding and wisdom on this issue, particularly within the Christian community.
It continues with a very good description of methods and techniques.
And the Geologic Column. this one is best studied through it's Table of Contents on site.
And finally, TalkOrgines, the 'garbage site,' as it is called by some of the more rabid YEC folks. This is the most comprehensive site in the web concerning the Theory of Evolution.
One thing to remember; evolution does not discuss the genesis of life or the universe. It only concerns it's self with certain biological process' taking place after those events.
Enjoy the read...
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 11:02:00 [Permalink]
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From the Science article:
"Assistant professor from McMaster University Ontario, Hendrik Poinar
cautions that nucleated protozoan cells have been found in 225 million year old amber, but geochemical tests revealed that the nuclei had been replaced with resin compounds. Even the resilience of the vessels may be deceptive. Flexible fossils of colonial marine organisms called graptolites have been recovered from 440 million year old rocks, but the original material- likely collagen- had not survived."
If that's the case here, then it's not the actual tissues that have survived, and AIG has buggered up again. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 12:21:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by the_ignored
From the Science article:
"Assistant professor from McMaster University Ontario, Hendrik Poinar
cautions that nucleated protozoan cells have been found in 225 million year old amber, but geochemical tests revealed that the nuclei had been replaced with resin compounds. Even the resilience of the vessels may be deceptive. Flexible fossils of colonial marine organisms called graptolites have been recovered from 440 million year old rocks, but the original material- likely collagen- had not survived."
If that's the case here, then it's not the actual tissues that have survived, and AIG has buggered up again.
And even if it is actual tissue, AiG has screwed the pooch, anyway. Again. As always.... 
It would not support a young earth at all; rather it would demonstrate that soft tissue could, in a vastly reduced form and under certain circumstances, survive fossilization.
I can't wait for further info! This is gonna be fun! Makes me wish I was still welcome at a couple of YEC forums.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Plyss
Skeptic Friend
Netherlands
231 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2005 : 02:45:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
This is a marvelous discovery and I might put forth the speculation that it is, perhaps, not all that rare in larger, fossil bones. And if found in 70 myo bones, why not in more recent fossils such as those from Megatherium? Or even more ancient like Allosarus or Diplodicus? Or, be still my heart, Dimetrodon! Only now, do we have an inkling of what to look for.
Willing to settle for titanosaurs?
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18524915.700
quote:
TRACES of protein have survived for more than 70 million years in dinosaur eggs from Argentina. They bear strong similarities to proteins from chicken eggs.
The Anacleto formation, in Auca Mahuevo in Patagonia, is famous for its spectacular preservation. The eggs were laid by massive long-necked plant-eaters called titanosaurs. Buried by floods, the eggs fossilised unusually fast, preserving the soft tissues and tiny bones within.
Mary Schweitzer at North Carolina State University in Raleigh injected rabbits with protein from either bird or dinosaur eggshells, collected the antibodies produced and tested whether they stuck to the other type of egg protein. Both types of antibody reacted to both proteins, indicating that they were similar (Proceedings of the Royal Society B, DOI: 10.1098/rspb.2004.2876).
Schweitzer now hopes to work out the sequence of amino acids in the ancient proteins.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2005 : 04:03:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Willing to settle for titanosaurs?
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18524915.700
Sure, why not?
I'd read about titanosaurs, but hadn't heard about the egg project. Miss Mary is a busy lady and evidently on the very cutting edge of this sort of research.
Compare it with the (chuckle-snort) Creation Science, and what do you get? Compentence as opposed to foolery; fact as opposed to fancy, eh?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2005 : 10:15:31 [Permalink]
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Cool! I just found out that one of the posters at Rapture Ready is a guy who writes for Talk Origins!
In fact, the TO article I linked to above "Ancient Molecules and Modern Myths" helps deal with this very issue. (makes sense of course, since that RR thread has the same topic as this one) |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Timgraysr
New Member
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2005 : 10:37:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
quote:
Originally posted by Timgraysr:
Mine is simply a quesiion to those that might know, I do not, the following. From my understanding of Genesis scriptures: There was water above and below us before the flood. The ground was a layer over water and the planet was encircled by water. We lived in what could be best describes as a steam room taking in vapor from all the minerals around us. If this were true, would it affect the results of carbon dating and the other methods of dating that we use that do not account for this?
Thank you for your opinion. I was hoping for an intelligent reply though. I did think the Huxly's were funny for the short time they were on though.
Well, since there is no evidence to support the supposition that "The ground was a layer over water and the planet was encircled by water", and in fact the available evidence argues against it, then there is no need for carbon dating to account for it.
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Tim Gray |
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Timgraysr
New Member
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2005 : 10:53:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Plyss
quote:
Originally posted by Timgraysr
Mine is simply a quesiion to those that might know, I do not, the following. From my understanding of Genesis scriptures: There was water above and below us before the flood. The ground was a layer over water and the planet was encircled by water. We lived in what could be best describes as a steam room taking in vapor from all the minerals around us. If this were true, would it affect the results of carbon dating and the other methods of dating that we use that do not account for this?
Thank You. There was a lot do digest in your reply. Please understand my faith does not constrict me to the Eart being only 6,000 years old. Frankly I believe in the Big Bang to a point. abridged is God said it and bang, it happened. That was not intended to be rude. I really did appreciate your reply. My studies in scripture lead me to believe we are much older and that there was infact an inteligent race of beings here prior to the creation of man. How the "Canopy" worked and was it like that I don't know. I did error on the use of mineral where I intended to use vegitation.
There is evidence to suport a great flood though in ereas thousands of feet above sea level. Could it have simply rained that much? I don't know and I do apologize. This is obviously for another forum. Again, thangs for your reply.
It is my understanding that nuclear decay processes are unaffected by the presence of steam.
Incidentally, for the time span involved in fossilisation i imagine carbon-dating is not the preferred method, as it seems to have an upper limit of 35.000 to 50.000 years. For materials older then this carbon-dating is pretty much useless.
Personally, i've found the notion of a "vapour-canopy" unconvincing considering there is no known mechanism for keeping such a system stable and moving a mass of water downwards in a gravitational field releases high amounts of energy.
Also, a steam-layer around the planet forms a greenhouse system trapping large amounts of heat, not unlike the planet Venus.
I have yet to see a model that depicts the effects of such a canopy, but it seems likely the temperature and pressure at the surface of the earth would be unable to support life as we know it.
Also, because minerals have notoriously low vapour pressures it would seem unlikely the atmosphere would take up vapour "from all the minerals around us."
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Tim Gray |
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