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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
 Posted - 04/13/2005 : 08:42:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Hi Verlch. I'm curious about this: "Israel will finally recognize Jesus as her Messiah (Zechariah 12:10)."
But looking at the passage, I'm not sure I see it your way:quote:
9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Sure, it's tempting to read this OT passage as some Jesus-reference, what with the "pierced" part. But note that it says "look upon me"-- that is, Yahweh; there is no indication that Jesus is talking here. (Of course, I'd argue that Jesus never talks and is never talked to in the OT, but some fundies will disagree.)
Part of the problem comes in the English translation. I quoted the NIV where it, like most translations, reads "look upon me whom they have pierced." But the Hebrew suggests that the person pierced isn't the speaker-- Yahweh-- but rather the person pierced is the person mourned. A Google search confirms this, as this site offers "they will look onto Me concerning whom they have pierced and they will mourn for him" (emph theirs).
Contextually, this makes much more sense.
It also serves to show how willing the NT writers were to rip OT passages out of context, twist them around (John says "look upon him" i.e. Jesus) to serve their own purposes-- not unlike the fundies of modern times! I guess old habits die hard...
Sorry man, but the whole Bible was written as a testament to man. There are over 300 references to the coming of the messiah in the old Testament. The OT was written by heaven to give mankind, whom God created, a guide to His Holy plan of Life, and Salvation givin freely to mankind. |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 09:19:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Sorry man, but the whole Bible was written as a testament to man. There are over 300 references to the coming of the messiah in the old Testament. The OT was written by heaven to give mankind, whom God created, a guide to His Holy plan of Life, and Salvation givin freely to mankind.
Good-- I was wondering if you had forgotten your propoganda/indoctrination, but it appears that you can mindlessly repeat tired claims even though they've been directly refuted in front of you.
The future of this discussion is all too predictable: I (or someone) will ask for proof of your (let's face it) BS claim to 300 references to the messiah, and you'll answer with a dozen or so web links. Half of those will have nothing to do with the question, but will refer to Masons or the Illuminati. The other half will contradict themselves.
Then, we'll go through and show you how what you claim to be proof of a Jesus reference in the OT is based on bad translation, leaps of logic, and misinformation (see my post above for an example). We'll do this for scores of your references, but you'll either deny that we've proven anything, or jump to something else and dodge the refutation altogether.
But while the outcome of this is all but certain, I look forward to learning some more about the OT from the discussion. |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 04/13/2005 09:20:47 |
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pfretzschner
Skeptic Friend
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 10:34:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm right here...I'm out picketing feminists. Making sure they don't promote anymore abortions, divorce and witchcraft.
Did I detect a sense of humor in that reply? Or did you mean it?
And really, why aren't you concerned with places (Red Lobster, Joe's Crab Shack etc.) that openly violate the same Levitical laws you and yours are so fanatacally devoted to? Why not demand that "Red Lobster" become "Red Locust" in accordance with Lev. 11:22? Or are you just picking and choosing which Words of the Lord you want to obey? |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 10:47:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pfretzschner
Did I detect a sense of humor in that reply? Or did you mean it?
Welcome to the Wonderful World of Verlch, pfretz! |
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pfretzschner
Skeptic Friend
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 12:29:27 [Permalink]
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Yeah , I guess that was wishful thinking. Where does he find these "feminists" to picket? "Excuse me, ma'am. Are you perchance a feminist? You are? Wait right there while I get m'picketing sign!"
edited to add: My Verlch-baiting may seem flip, but I would like someone to explain why some things, like eating shellfish, are okay while others, like homosexuality, are not. They are both condemned in the same book of the bible. |
| Edited by - pfretzschner on 04/13/2005 12:36:22 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 14:44:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pfretzschner
edited to add: My Verlch-baiting may seem flip, but I would like someone to explain why some things, like eating shellfish, are okay while others, like homosexuality, are not. They are both condemned in the same book of the bible.
Or, for that matter, wearing "clothing woven of two kinds of material." Of course, this means that I'm going to hell for my favorite pair of pants, but who am I to disagree with Yahweh? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2005 : 16:06:36 [Permalink]
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I think V's being a little tongue-in-cheek about the feminists, here. But sometimes, it's kinda hard to tell....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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pfretzschner
Skeptic Friend
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2005 : 12:00:21 [Permalink]
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| Verlch? Enlighten us! |
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pfretzschner
Skeptic Friend
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2005 : 07:39:58 [Permalink]
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| Maybe the rapture's begun, and VERLCH was first! |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2005 : 07:51:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pfretzschner
Maybe the rapture's begun, and VERLCH was first!
I'm not sure if I would be happy about that or not.
In any case, while verlch used to come here pretty frequently (witness, for instance, this great thread; and would that his original "Things Get Fugly!!!!!!!" thread weren't archived-- that's fun read), he seems to have scaled back his SFN scrawls.
It was frustrating having a debate with the ol' v-man, but it was always fun. I'm sure he'll be back soon enough... |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 04/20/2005 07:52:00 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2005 : 08:09:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally lamented by Cuneiformist
...and would that his original "Things Get Fugly!!!!!!!" thread weren't archived-- that's fun read...
Archived doesn't mean unreadable. "Things Get Fugly!!!!!!" is easily accessed.
Note, however, that that thread wasn't verlch's first foray here on the SFN. He made four posts prior to that, about a year before, if I remember correctly. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2005 : 08:52:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Archived doesn't mean unreadable.
But it does mean difficult for Cuneiformist to access without some technologically saavy person provinding the link.
quote:
Note, however, that that thread wasn't verlch's first foray here on the SFN. He made four posts prior to that, about a year before, if I remember correctly.
True, but this was the one that first stands out for him-- it occupied SFN for weeks! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2005 : 10:46:03 [Permalink]
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Ah yes, good ol' Fugly. That one was a classic. It had everything from creation to catastrophy, science to silly; from the marvelous to the mundane, to the mad. What more could one ask?
We'll not soon again see it's like, alas.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2005 : 12:02:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
But it does mean difficult for Cuneiformist to access without some technologically saavy person provinding the link.
Here's the key: go to the forums page, and on the far right of the folder you're interested in, you'll see a little file folder icon with an A on it. Click that, and you'll be looking at the archived topics for that folder. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2005 : 03:13:51 [Permalink]
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Verlch, this new pope should be right up your ally. Dig it:
quote:
The GOP Flat-Earthers Love the Grand Inquisitor
Calling Pope Benedict XVI, aka Joseph Ratzinger, a "medievalist" is not just an empty insult. This guy literally believes the Earth is the center of the universe, or perhaps something even crazier. Check out what he said about Galileo in a speech in Parma, Italy, on March 15, 1990:
"At the time of Galileo the Church remained much more faithful to reason than Galileo himself. The process against Galileo was reasonable and just."
I guess it's no wonder the flat-earthers in the GOP are so enthused about Ratzi's election.
There's an interesting piece on Galileo and the church in there, so it's not all just Ratzi and Republican-bashing.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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