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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2005 :  12:44:37  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
I remember the good old days of my youth where we would call religious hotlines and give them questions to painful to answer such as, If I dig a hole straight down will I eventually get to hell? (After confering with the boss, yes was the answer) Anyway this thread is for posting questions that the faithful will have difficulty wrapping their brain around...*

For "Those seeking enlightenment"
The second question developed from the first..

What will you do when you find enlightenment, as you will be just another crackpot who has it all figured out?

What if enlightenment was not what you expected, if in fact the information was essentially useless in a practical sense?

Questions for Bible literalists are too easy.
[Moved to the Religion folder - Dave W.]

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini

Plyss
Skeptic Friend

Netherlands
231 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2005 :  13:50:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Plyss a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

I remember the good old days of my youth where we would call religious hotlines and give them questions to painful to answer such as, If I dig a hole straight down will I eventually get to hell? (After confering with the boss, yes was the answer) Anyway this thread is for posting questions that the faithful will have difficulty wrapping their brain around...*

For "Those seeking enlightenment"
The second question developed from the first..

What will you do when you find enlightenment, as you will be just another crackpot who has it all figured out?

What if enlightenment was not what you expected, if in fact the information was essentially useless in a practical sense?

Questions for Bible literalists are too easy.
[Moved to the Religion folder - Dave W.]



Do we have souls?
If so, when do we get them?
At birth, at conception?
In the case of conception, that's kinda tricky..
Is the soul installed the moment the sperm-cell docks onto the ovum? Or is it the moment the fusion-machinery sets into action to bring the male DNA into the ovum? At the first meiosis? At the onset of neural development?

What about true chimeras? On occasion two separately fertilised ovums fuse again and form a single organism with two sets of genomic information. Does such a person have two souls? If so, what decides which soul goes to heaven? Are their destinations intertwined? Or can one go to heaven while the other goes to hell?

On multiple personality disorders: Do they get multiple souls?

Can animals have souls? If not, how does one decide when an organism has a soul? Is a cro-magnon human? Is a neanderthal?

Considering the world's religions claim to have detailed knowledge of the soul i don't think these are unreasonable questions.

Lovely subject, BPS. I'll give it some more thought when i'm sobre again :)
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2005 :  14:30:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Plyss
On multiple personality disorders: Do they get multiple souls?

Similar to this, I was shocked to learn as a young man that amnesia sufferers often not only fail to remember who they are, but adopt completely new lifestyles. I remember the case of one woman who literally threw out all her old clothes and music casettes, as they no longer suited her tastes. In every sense of the word, the old "her" was gone, and the new "her" had an entirely new personality.

The obvious question I raised to my religion teacher the next day was "What happened here? Did the woman somehow get a new soul in her old body?"

Some others I like to ask christians are: If anyone who repents can be saved and go to heaven, could Satan go to heaven if he repented?

And: Sacrifice entails loss, but Jesus didn't give anything up (certainly not his life, which he regained). So how can Jesus' death be considered a "sacrifice" if he rose from the dead three days later?


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/12/2005 14:32:47
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2005 :  16:16:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
I'll see if I can answer some of these:

quote:
Can animals have souls? If not, how does one decide when an organism has a soul? Is a cro-magnon human? Is a neanderthal?


No, animals can not have souls. There were no such things as Cro-Magnon or Neanderthals, all fossils scientists use as evidence for these are just deformed homo sapiens.

quote:
If anyone who repents can be saved and go to heaven, could Satan go to heaven if he repented?


No, because Satan was sent to Hell before Jesus died for our sins.

However, a better question: Could Hitler? I believe the answer to this is yes.

quote:
Sacrifice entails loss, but Jesus didn't give anything up (certainly not his life, which he regained). So how can Jesus' death be considered a "sacrifice" if he rose from the dead three days later?


A sacrifice does not only entail physical loss. For example, one could sacrifice time. Also, going though a painful process could be considered a sacrifice.

I think I could answer the others, but that would require me just making things up.

Mine is: Could God create an immovable object? If he can, could he move it?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2005 :  16:39:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Who created God?

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2005 :  16:51:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
No, because Satan was sent to Hell before Jesus died for our sins.

But you would be damning every person who ever lived before Christ, including Plato and Aristotle, as well as those who never heard of Jesus in their lifetime. While this used to be church doctrine, most modern christians see the obvious injustice in such an answer.

quote:
However, a better question: Could Hitler? I believe the answer to this is yes.
According to Christian theology, absolutely yes.

quote:
A sacrifice does not only entail physical loss. For example, one could sacrifice time. Also, going though a painful process could be considered a sacrifice.
Of course, but most Christians will vehemently argue that Jesus' sacrifice entailed much more than simply having his weekend shot to hell.

quote:
Mine is: Could God create an immovable object? If he can, could he move it?
Hmm, but that's just a simple paradox, as equally perplexing to those who do not subscribe to any particular supernatural belief. (The existence of an all-powerful god must be hypothetically assumed a priori to even begin to consider the question.)


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/12/2005 16:55:29
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2005 :  16:53:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia

Who created God?

Super-God. Duh.




And before you even ask, Super-God was the spawn of Mega-God. Trust me, all the bases are covered.

"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/12/2005 17:00:30
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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend

313 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2005 :  18:01:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send woolytoad a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert


And before you even ask, Super-God was the spawn of Mega-God. Trust me, all the bases are covered.



Mighty Morphing Power Gods. Is there a Super-Power-Mega-Ultra-Ninja-God?

quote:
Hmm, but that's just a simple paradox, as equally perplexing to those who do not subscribe to any particular supernatural belief. (The existence of an all-powerful god must be hypothetically assumed a priori to even begin to consider the question.)


Isn't that the point? We assume something (Omnipotent God). We propose something (create an immovable object). Show that it is logically absurd (God makes such an object and cannot move it. God creates an object which he can move). Similar to proving root 2 is irrational. Of course we need to assume the rules under which God operates ... which is tricky.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2005 :  18:33:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by woolytoad
quote:
Hmm, but that's just a simple paradox, as equally perplexing to those who do not subscribe to any particular supernatural belief. (The existence of an all-powerful god must be hypothetically assumed a priori to even begin to consider the question.)


Isn't that the point? We assume something (Omnipotent God). We propose something (create an immovable object). Show that it is logically absurd (God makes such an object and cannot move it. God creates an object which he can move). Similar to proving root 2 is irrational. Of course we need to assume the rules under which God operates ... which is tricky.

Indeed...

The rules under which we live makes this situation a paradox. God is above that, so situations we consider paradoxes are not so to God. Thus, the answer to that question is: It's irrelevant.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2005 :  19:08:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

However, a better question: Could Hitler? I believe the answer to this is yes.
Nope, 'cause he's dead. Had he repented before he died, he could have gone to Heaven. But once he's dead, he's stripped of his "free will," and must just suffer eternal damnation.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2005 :  19:19:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

However, a better question: Could Hitler? I believe the answer to this is yes.
Nope, 'cause he's dead. Had he repented before he died, he could have gone to Heaven. But once he's dead, he's stripped of his "free will," and must just suffer eternal damnation.

Right, so the real question is, did Hitler repent in his heart at the last moment? We can't know, but we can say that if he did, christian theology says he's sipping pina coladas in heaven right now.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2005 :  19:23:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Isn't that the point? We assume something (Omnipotent God). We propose something (create an immovable object). Show that it is logically absurd (God makes such an object and cannot move it. God creates an object which he can move). Similar to proving root 2 is irrational. Of course we need to assume the rules under which God operates ... which is tricky.
Yes, but my point was that all paradoxes are logically absurd. That this one just happens to involve a supernatural subject is somewhat irrelevant. Of course, I see your point as well.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/12/2005 19:36:36
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2005 :  20:20:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Right, so the real question is, did Hitler repent in his heart at the last moment? We can't know, but we can say that if he did, christian theology says he's sipping pina coladas in heaven right now.
Actually, that would be only those Christian theologies which don't require "walking with Christ" in addition to faith. In other words, if you're required to do "good works" and/or try to live as Jesus did, Hitler was SOL.

On the other hand, if the really twisted Christians are right, and the Jews are evil, then it's quite possible Adolf is sharing those pina coladas with Martin Luther right now.

Which brings us to a good stumper for any particular Christian extremist: you point to a Christian of the opposite extreme, and ask "why aren't they a Christian?" Then ask the same of the person you pointed to (point to someone else this time). Repeat as necessary until the point is made that the label "Christian" is as malleable as butter near the stove. I mean, by the time you're done, you'll have touched on just about every "Christian" doctrine there is, other than the existence of "God" (and they won't even agree on God's "nature").

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"

USA
166 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2005 :  21:30:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send byhisgrace88 an AOL message Send byhisgrace88 a Private Message
Ok, so the quote thing isn't working right for me, so all my quotes will just be inside dashes.


--Do we have souls?
If so, when do we get them?
At birth, at conception?
In the case of conception, that's kinda tricky..
Is the soul installed the moment the sperm-cell docks onto the ovum? Or is it the moment the fusion-machinery sets into action to bring the male DNA into the ovum? At the first meiosis? At the onset of neural development?--

The answer to this question is a good, honest "I don't know." A wise Christian should NEVER assume they can comprehend everything about God, or that God even wants us to try. There are some things that are just left in question. I am one who firmly believes that once in heaven we will NEVER know everything there is to know about God. I truly believe that's how great he is.

--Who created God?--

Nobody created God.....that's why he's God. This argument works even better against evolution. If there was not a diety, or someone who was not constrained by time, then where did ANYTHING come from. We can debate the possibilities of the next 4.5 billion years all we want, but evolutions biggest problem comes right at the beginning. How could anything other than at least some form of god exsist at all? (not necessarily MY God) Nothing comes from nothing, and nothing ever will.

I might try to answer some more questions sometime soon, but I have to get some sleep.


--Some others I like to ask christians are: If anyone who repents can be saved and go to heaven, could Satan go to heaven if he repented?--


Humans are "created in God's image". Angels are not. Jesus died for the sins of man, and man alone. So I don't believe that the same rules apply for Satan, because he is a fallen angel.



Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis
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Plyss
Skeptic Friend

Netherlands
231 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2005 :  23:54:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Plyss a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
No, because Satan was sent to Hell before Jesus died for our sins.

But you would be damning every person who ever lived before Christ, including Plato and Aristotle, as well as those who never heard of Jesus in their lifetime. While this used to be church doctrine, most modern christians see the obvious injustice in such an answer.



Also, you'd damn to hell everyone who's never heard of Jesus. Like tribal societies in the middle of the Amazon, for example. Considering they never had a chance to hear the gospel sending them into an eternity of burning sulphur seems a tad bit unfair.

Now you might make an exception for people who've never heard of Jesus, but that makes the whole business of missionaries suspect. All the people you preach to would have been better off not knowing your message.

This whole Hell-business is odd anyway. Considering we leave our material bodies behind (you can dig some up if you don't believe this) when we die, what do we have left to feel the torture anyway? Are our souls physical so they can interact with heated, oxidizing sulphur? Or do we get new bodies just so we can feel the neverending flames? If we get a new body it'll need some modifications so we can breathe in the sulphur-pool otherwise we'd just die again. Also, the nerve-ending we get will have to be better then the ones we have now, because these stop transmitting pain-signals as soon as they're burned. And if it's possible to Intelligently Design such nerve-ending, why couldn't we get some right now? I'm sure some people would benefit from indistructable nerve-cells, like people with Lepra or neuro-degenerative diseases like Alzheimer.
Hmm, that makes me think, if we get those new nerve-endings in Hell, are we also automatically cured from Alzheimer?
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2005 :  06:32:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

quote:
Originally posted by Siberia

Who created God?

Super-God. Duh.




And before you even ask, Super-God was the spawn of Mega-God. Trust me, all the bases are covered.



Not to be confused with MechaGod or Mighty Morphine Power God (look at some of His creations, pharmaceuticals had to be involved) or the King Daddy of them all, God Zero, nose phleghm of the great arklesiezure.

Secretly, God Zero is the invention of a bunch of dragons and orcs sitting around playing Bums and Business. I've seen your character sheet. Your player is a newbie.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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