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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 04/14/2005 : 19:32:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
<snip>
But I do know that Jesus Christ is considered to be god incarnate by that same church, so let's use him. Are you saying that it was impossible to reject Christ? Peter never denied Christ? Judas never turned him in for some silver coins? According to you, every person who ever came into contact with Jesus should have fallen on their knees and forever been changed.
You're rusty in your christian mythology . . . . Jesus was God incarnated as a human, not God in all his might and glory. Rejecting Jesus would be the same as rejecting any other human being.
Surely you cannot fail to see the point, which is that god can present himself however he wishes, including in a form that can convince of his existence without reducing us to blubbering piles of souless jelly. The point is that Jesus was god in a form that accomplished both those things. How then can you still argue that god cannot reveal himself in a manner that wouldn't strip us of free will? Clearly it's possible.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/14/2005 19:35:51 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2005 : 19:41:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
<snip> In no way can you argue that a choice based on zero information is better than an informed choice. Right now we can't even say whether there is a choice to follow god because we don't even know he exists! How does that in any way engage your free will? It doesn't.
First of all, the choice in christian mythology is not based on zero information. It's based on the 'good news' as spread by Jesus, the prophets and umteen followers afterward. That news is supposed to be enough for you to make an informed decision. Furthermore, your 'informed choice' isn't a choice at all. If you knew with 100% certainty god's existance, you would not have a choice. You would obey.
Your food analogy is cute but it doesn't reflect the reality of the choice given by god. With christianity it's more like this: you're shown the right way to live your life - with respect for others, generosity, compassion, tolerance and so on. I'm thinking of the teachings of Jesus here, not the churches and not the OT. You're told that this is instrinsically good and it's what god wants you to do. Then you're left to behave as you choose. If god were to appear and administer the instructions himself, rather than using prophets or human incarnations, then your freedom to choose would be lost. Why is freedom of choice so important? I don't know.
Lastly, for the record, I'd like to point out I don't have faith and I don't think faith is a good thing. I'm a little uncomfortable in the role of defending faith. If there is a god, I'd be astounded if it somehow valued irrational belief over proof and reason. As far as the faith as preservation of free will is concerned, it's the best the faithful have to explain the absence of god. It's certainly open to hefty criticism, but your characterization of it is imo unfair and inacurate, which is the only reason I can think of that I'm spending this time discussing it. |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2005 : 19:47:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
<snip>
But I do know that Jesus Christ is considered to be god incarnate by that same church, so let's use him. Are you saying that it was impossible to reject Christ? Peter never denied Christ? Judas never turned him in for some silver coins? According to you, every person who ever came into contact with Jesus should have fallen on their knees and forever been changed.
You're rusty in your christian mythology . . . . Jesus was God incarnated as a human, not God in all his might and glory. Rejecting Jesus would be the same as rejecting any other human being.
Surely you cannot fail to see the point, which is that god can present himself however he wishes, including in a form that can convince of his existence without reducing us to blubbering piles of souless jelly. The point is that Jesus was god in a form that accomplished both those things. How then can you still argue that god cannot reveal himself in a manner that wouldn't strip us of free will? Clearly it's possible.
Jesus was a human avatar of God, not God himself. One presumes God communicated to humanity in this way in order to maintain free will. The fact that Jesus walked around teaching this and that does not prove god exists. It leaves doubt, requires faith, and maintains free will. |
-Chaloobi
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2005 : 19:51:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
Furthermore, your 'informed choice' isn't a choice at all. If you knew with 100% certainty god's existance, you would not have a choice. You would obey.
See, right here that you are compressing two issues into one. God can make his presence known without imposing his will. To say that he can't limits god, and you have provided no justification that it is beyond him to do so.
quote:
If god were to appear and administer the instructions himself, rather than using prophets or human incarnations, then your freedom to choose would be lost.
Again, you haven't demonstrated why this is necessarily so. You simply state it as if it is fact despite my numberous attempts to provides examples where the opposite holds true.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/14/2005 19:52:22 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2005 : 19:55:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
Jesus was a human avatar of God, not God himself.
Wow, a few centuries ago that would have gotten you burned at the stake. But perhaps we are sticking too closely to christian theology.
Let me ask you why it is beyond any supreme being's power to remove doubt of its existence from our minds while simlutaneous preserving our ability to freely choose to follow its will or not. This is the argument you have chosen to defend. You must prove how one necessarily and in all circumstances prohibits the other.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/14/2005 19:57:31 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2005 : 20:19:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
Furthermore, your 'informed choice' isn't a choice at all. If you knew with 100% certainty god's existance, you would not have a choice. You would obey.
See, right here that you are compressing two issues into one. God can make his presence known without imposing his will. To say that he can't limits god, and you have provided no justification that it is beyond him to do so.
quote:
If god were to appear and administer the instructions himself, rather than using prophets or human incarnations, then your freedom to choose would be lost.
Again, you haven't demonstrated why this is necessarily so. You simply state it as if it is fact despite my numberous attempts to provides examples where the opposite holds true.
We're working in the realm of faith here. I can state anything I want as fact and not require any proof at all. It's a matter of faith, afterall. LOL.  |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2005 : 20:26:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
Jesus was a human avatar of God, not God himself.
Wow, a few centuries ago that would have gotten you burned at the stake. But perhaps we are sticking too closely to christian theology.
Let me ask you why it is beyond any supreme being's power to remove doubt of its existence from our minds while simlutaneous preserving our ability to freely choose to follow its will or not. This is the argument you have chosen to defend. You must prove how one necessarily and in all circumstances prohibits the other.
Uncle. The truth is, I don't believe it, I don't care much about it, and I know it doesn't make much sense (nothing in religion really does). It's a nice explanation for God's absence and fixation with faith, but that's about it. It's been fun but I've had enough. |
-Chaloobi
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2005 : 20:37:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
Uncle. The truth is, I don't believe it, I don't care much about it, and I know it doesn't make much sense (nothing in religion really does). It's a nice explanation for God's absence and fixation with faith, but that's about it. It's been fun but I've had enough.
Haha. Ok, fair enough. Thank you for the (at times spirited) debate.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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