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Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2005 :  08:18:11  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message
Brain specialists, Prof. J.C.Eccles, Sir Cyril Burt, Dr.Wilder Penfield and Prof.W.H.Thorpe stated that in their opinion the brain appears to be more a complicated organism to register and channel consciousness rather than produce it. "The brain is messenger to consciousness", Eccles said. In his famous debate with philosopher Popper "The self and its brain" this matter was examined further.

Interesting! Thoughts?

beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2005 :  08:42:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
How would they have determined that?
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2005 :  08:45:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
Hey, Storm, welcome back!
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2005 :  08:47:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Storm

Brain specialists, Prof. J.C.Eccles, Sir Cyril Burt, Dr.Wilder Penfield and Prof.W.H.Thorpe stated that in their opinion the brain appears to be more a complicated organism to register and channel consciousness rather than produce it. "The brain is messenger to consciousness", Eccles said. In his famous debate with philosopher Popper "The self and its brain" this matter was examined further.

Interesting! Thoughts?

Where was this from? It's hard to make comments on something like this without placing it in a larger context. Can you link it or reference the book/article?
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Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2005 :  09:40:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message
Originally posted by Cune

quote:
It's hard to make comments on something like this without placing it in a larger context.


Is it so hard...
Just think about what I have said throughout all of my posts.... on energy.... consciousness... Without references, articles, etc... just think about it as the individual you are...

The brain is merely the messenger.... of consciousness...

The link is somewhere in here: http://www.parapsych.org/journal_abstracts.html

Have fun searching... be open to the possibilities.......
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2005 :  10:11:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
Just think about what I have said throughout all of my posts.... on energy.... consciousness... Without references, articles, etc... just think about it as the individual you are...



To paraphrase something Kil once said about another post like this one: It must be liberating, to go through life totally unencumbered by evidence, or even the desire for it.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2005 :  10:32:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message
Did you even take the time to do the research on what I have proposed Dude? Did you take the time to even search what I quoted?

Originally posted by Dude

quote:
It must be liberating, to go through life totally unencumbered by evidence, or even the desire for it.


I agree Dude... It really must be.....
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2005 :  11:53:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
Did you even take the time to do the research on what I have proposed Dude? Did you take the time to even search what I quoted?



You quoted what, exactly? You threw out a couple of names and made yet another claim that is entirely unsupported by evidence. Then, when asked for info, you post a link to a site and say "The link is somewhere in here."

Again, for the 10,000th time, when YOU make a claim, the burden of evidence is on YOU, not anyone else. If you haven't picked up on that most basic concept in your time here, then I don't know what else to say.

As for your OP, I'm not sure what a "brain specialist" is? None of the names you drop, without citing a study or credentials, is familair to me. What leads your experts to form their current opinion? What specific data?

Atleast you put in the right folder, because it definitely REEKS of pseudoscientific nonsense.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2005 :  12:04:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Just think about what I have said throughout all of my posts.... on energy.... consciousness... Without references, articles, etc... just think about it as the individual you are...
But this is the worst way to approach something! Imagine if I told you to seriously consider the work of Zecharia Sitchin without considering other scholars' views on ancient Mesopotamian history or astronomy. What if I told you to consider evolution based only on a few quotes from Johnson's Darwin on Trial? How could a non-specialist address some of his points without seeing Johnson's arguments in context, and without hearing what others have to say?
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2005 :  12:34:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Storm

Brain specialists, Prof. J.C.Eccles, Sir Cyril Burt, Dr.Wilder Penfield and Prof.W.H.Thorpe stated that in their opinion the brain appears to be more a complicated organism to register and channel consciousness rather than produce it. "The brain is messenger to consciousness", Eccles said. In his famous debate with philosopher Popper "The self and its brain" this matter was examined further.

Interesting! Thoughts?



Gotta throw a flag on this one.

1) Linking to a parapsycological website which does not contain the article in question muddies the issue at hand.
2) Sir Cyril L. Burt (1883 - 1971) used fraudulent data to advance personal theories.
http://www.indiana.edu/%7Eintell/burt.shtml
3) J.C.Eccles (1903 - 1997) Nobel prize winner for his work in neurology but had no papers that I can find which advanced such poppycock. He did write something on the neurophysological basis of the mind.
http://www.asap.unimelb.edu.au/bsparcs/biogs/P000382b.htm
4) Wilder Penfeld (1891 - 1976) did groundbreaking work on finding where things are housed in the brain. Also, did not advance the main premise of the argument.
http://particle.physics.ucdavis.edu/bios/Penfield.html
5) W.H.Thorpe (1902 - 1986) British Ethologist who discovered birds learned their songs. Did not advance the main thrust of the argument.
6) Since the earliest any of these three could have worked together is 1971, you will need to provide the source for this assertation.

It is unclear if the statement is a medical opinion or a philisophical one. You even quote a debate between a philosopher (or as Mel Brooks put in in History of the World Part 1, a bullshit artist.) and J. C. Eccles which tends to indicate a philispohical arguement rather than a medical opinion.

Thoughts? Parapsychological poppycock. Twaddle. Irrelavent philosophical musings by men of science.


Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2005 :  12:38:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
"The brain is messenger to consciousness", Eccles said. In his famous debate with philosopher Popper "The self and its brain" this matter was examined further.

Interesting! Thoughts?

I'm skeptical to the idea that the brain is only relaying consciousness from somewhere else. Since it is an extraordinary claim, I think you should provide extraordinary evidence to back it up.

In this article Massimo Pigliucci writes about his observation of consciousness, and his conclusion is that it is a function of the brain interpreting the information from the rest of the body.

Massimo presents two cases that supports his assumption.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2005 :  14:00:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
Storm wrote:

quote:
Brain specialists, Prof. J.C.Eccles, Sir Cyril Burt, Dr.Wilder Penfield and Prof.W.H.Thorpe stated that in their opinion the brain appears to be more a complicated organism to register and channel consciousness rather than produce it. "The brain is messenger to consciousness", Eccles said. In his famous debate with philosopher Popper "The self and its brain" this matter was examined further.


From This website:

quote:
Brain specialists, Prof. J.C.Eccles, Sir Cyril Burt, Dr.Wilder Penfield and Prof.W.H.Thorpe stated that in their opinion the brain appears to be more a complicated organism to register and channel consciousness rather than produce it. "The brain is messenger to consciousness", Eccles said. In his famous debate with philosopher Popper "The self and its brain" this matter was examined further.


Seems as if someone forgot to reword copied text.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 05/09/2005 14:00:42
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Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2005 :  14:07:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message
I have made no claim. Just a statement that reflects the possibilities of what consciousness is and where it ultimetly resides. I have done MYresearch on the subjects probably more than most of you. I have left numerous links for all of you to investigate what I have discussed here.
I have come to the realization that most of your guys consciousness lies in your ... Well let me not be rude like others...
You want extraordinary proof... Do the research...
And really just because your a skpetic doesn't mean you cannot be philisophical...
Most of you are all just True Believers anyway...
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2005 :  14:36:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Storm

I have made no claim. Just a statement that reflects the possibilities of what consciousness is and where it ultimetly resides.


AKA. A claim.

quote:
I have done MYresearch on the subjects probably more than most of you.


I researched the men associated with the claim and you did not source your statement. You are the claimant, the burden of proof or even source cites is on you. Not us.

quote:
I have left numerous links for all of you to investigate what I have discussed here.


Links were invalid to this claim, sassy.

quote:

I have come to the realization that most of your guys consciousness lies in your ... Well let me not be rude like others...
You want extraordinary proof... Do the research...


Classic shifting the burden of proof to a non-claimant.

quote:

And really just because your a skpetic doesn't mean you cannot be philisophical...
Most of you are all just True Believers anyway...



Philisophic is fine. Just don't call it science.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2005 :  14:43:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
You have not done a shred of "research," which would be to look into the truth of a matter. You have cherry picked various articles that interest you, often written as pure speculation backed up by little to no science. You then somehow come to believe that because someone, somewhere has speculated along the same dubious lines of thought as you that you have done "research" which supports your theory. As has been explained to you in the past, 10,000 articles speculating on ghosts or the origin of consciousness does not evidence make if they are baseless bullshit.

I could come up with a "theory" that time travelers have visited the earth in the recent past. I could then "research" various comic books and tabloid news articles which support my theory. Maybe I could cite Einstein's theory of relativity. I could throw out the name of some PhD's or explain in vague terms what experiments in quantum mechanics reveal about the nature of time. NONE of that would be research. No one should consider my "theory" as anything other than pure fantasy, especially if when pressed for sources I merely shrieked "Do your own research!"
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Most of you are all just True Believers anyway...
Believers in what exactly, Storm? In critical thinking? The scientific method? In demanding proper experiment protocols and standards of evidence? Yes, yes, and yes.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 05/09/2005 16:28:10
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2005 :  16:15:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
You read one article on a subject and find it to be bullshit (that is, based on nothing). You read another on the same subject and find it to be bullshit. And another, and another. How many before you decide the subject just isn't worth looking into? 5 seems like a good number, 10 is being generous. I have read some articles, not very many, on ghosts, and I have found them all to be just that. If you give me a specific article to read, I'll read it, but I'm not going to go wading through bullshit for hours on end to find it.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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