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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
 Posted - 05/11/2005 : 18:37:53 [Permalink]
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originally posted by Dave
quote:
Perhaps it's important to note, Storm, that I used to be a "believer" in many things "woo-woo." I now consider the time and effort I spent actively engaged in "research" about such things to have been wasted, except for a handful of friendships I made. For example, when I think about the money I spent on books about the supernatural and occult, and how much it'd be worth now even just sitting in a passbook savings account for 20-something years, I come close to tears.
Dave... you should not feel your time and effort is wasted... you have learned...have grown... from that time... do not look back at in regret...but in reflection and understanding of who you became because of it... I feel though as if a something happened to you ...what changed your mind about the woo-woo subjects... magick the occult...
Originally posted by Dave
quote:
adolescent masturbatory fantasies about ESP, telekinesis and projection-of-consciousness.
hey let's not give up everything!!! give a girl break!!!
Originally posted by Dude
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Storm.... Sometimes you make me want to pull my hair out.
yeah well what can I tell you
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
There are "thousands" of reports of UFOs every year also, does hat suddenly mean that the little green men are real?
i am not talking about Aliens Dude... There is no comparison...this is where confusion sets in I think and debunking becomes the way out... I am talking about The survival of the Human Personality... Life by statistics is a given somewhere out in space ... correct.. so why not assume they would want to travel...we do...
but any way I was not talking of Aliens.. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 18:46:28 [Permalink]
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originally posted by Wreck
quote:
the tentative conclusion that makes the most sense is that natural phenomena are being misinterpreted
Exactley!!!!!!!!!! My sentiments exactley!!!! You hit the nail on the head!!!!!!  |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 18:49:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
What would constitute as evidence? Pictures.... have numerous ones...recorded voices.... have that...collective witnesses.. measurement? prediction? that has yet to be discovered...
Well, those thing could be evidence if the claim were not so extraordinary. If you wanted to prove something more mundane, say whehter or not the Ivory-Billed Woodpecker were still alive, the testimony of expert eye-witnesses might be enough. Obviously, with ghosts, they are not sufficient in and of themselves.
Furthermore, one would have to rule out all other common possible explanations. This is where you fail miserably, Storm. Rather than see what other possibilities for ghosts exist, you have hooked onto a single explanation. As Dude mentioned, this is not how one arrives at truth. Each photo, sound bite, and anecdote needs to be individualy analyses to see what, if anything, is truly unexplainable about them. You on the other hand would rather lump them all together as a single phenomena, a single "anomoly" that can be universally accounted for by a single explanation. The truth is probably that each case a different cause. A wisp of smoke here. A loud pipe there. Bad film. Bad memory. Whatever.
As skeptics, we are open to all possibilities, but we won't accept an unfounded explanation on flimsy evidence. And truthfully neither should you. Until someone comes up with compelling evidence, we must assume each anecdote has a mundane explanation. We should speculate, but when doing so we should always default to the most reasonable answer.
My question to you is, why do you reject current explanations that ghosts aren't real? You've never answered that. You just said there are too many stories for them all to be made up. That's true, but that's only one explanation. People can be honestly fooled, too.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 05/11/2005 19:09:25 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 18:54:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
originally posted by Wreck
quote:
the tentative conclusion that makes the most sense is that natural phenomena are being misinterpreted
Exactley!!!!!!!!!! My sentiments exactley!!!! You hit the nail on the head!!!!!!
I think he means natural phenoma, like swamp gas, are being mistaken as ghosts, Storm. Not that ghosts are a natural phenomenon that people mistake for supernatural. You see, the question is whether ghosts exist or not, not whether they or natural or not. Just because you accept the existence of ghosts unquestionably doesn't mean the rest of us do by a long shot.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 05/11/2005 18:56:50 |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 19:00:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H.
quote:
My question to you is, why do you reject current explanations that ghosts aren't real? You've nevered answered that. You just said there are too many stories for them all to be made up. That's true, but that's only one explanation. People can be honestly fooled, too.
because . I have been a first hand witness to the phenomenon...I grew uo in a house that I believe is haunted...I have come to the conclusion that they are fragments of human personalities that once lived..once occupied where my childhood home rests...
originally posted by H.
quote:
Furthermore, one would have to rule out all other common possible explanations. This is where you fail miserably, Storm. Rather than see what other possibilities for ghosts exist, you have hooked onto a single explanation.
Well I wouldn't say fail miserably...Oh no H... The disintegration of the human personality is just one of the causes i believe create ghostly phenomenon... there are other causes...it depends on the event itself.. |
| Edited by - Storm on 05/11/2005 19:11:36 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 19:14:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Dave... you should not feel your time and effort is wasted... you have learned...have grown... from that time... do not look back at in regret...but in reflection and understanding of who you became because of it...
While I appreciate the thoughts, Storm, I'm gagging a bit on the sentimentality.  quote:
I feel though as if a something happened to you ...what changed your mind about the woo-woo subjects... magick the occult...
Lots of stuff. Nothing in particular "happened" to me. The change began with the realization that nothing I was doing was advancing my life (and it was dragging some of my friends down), and ended years later when I became symptomatic with psoriasis, and found I had joined a group of people more preyed-upon by alternative-medicine quacks than any other single disease population. My serious investigations into alt-med led directly to where I am now, I've just "branched out" by applying what I learned in that one arena to other areas.quote:
hey let's not give up everything!!! give a girl break!!!
Don't get me wrong: I've still got my adolescent masturbatory fantasies, I just don't live my life as if they'll ever come true (and I certainly wouldn't make a career choice based on them). And I still enjoy a good novel, movie or RPG in which magic is "real." I just know that they're fiction, and thus entertainment, instead of "examinations of possibilities." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 19:19:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
The disintegration of the human personality is just one of the causes i believe create ghostly phenomenon... there are other causes...it depends on the event itself..
There are an infinite number of speculative causes of any event. Why is "the disintegration of the human personality" any more (or less) valued by you than, say, the idea that ghostly phenomena are caused by the temporary failure of the invisibility shields of extraterrestrials who walk among us? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 19:34:45 [Permalink]
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originally posted by dave
quote:
There are an infinite number of speculative causes of any event. Why is "the disintegration of the human personality" any more (or less) valued by you than, say, the idea that ghostly phenomena are caused by the temporary failure of the invisibility shields of extraterrestrials who walk among us?
because with the evidence including ancedotal... parapsychologists have come to a classification of phenomenon.. Aliens have played no part in the ghostly encounters.. ghosts are mostly apparitions of the dead...although there have been reports of apparitions of the living..i.e. Doppelgangers...or the projected will |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 19:43:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Aliens have played no part in the ghostly encounters..
Sorry, that's an assumption of facts not in evidence.quote:
ghosts are mostly apparitions of the dead...although there have been reports of apparitions of the living..i.e. Doppelgangers...or the projected will
It could very well be that the aliens, when their invisibility shields fail, look like dead (or living) people. Again, you're assuming things not in evidence to dismiss one speculative cause of these phenomena in favor of another.
And it doesn't matter if people have "classified" these things if what they've classified isn't what they think it is. Diseases were classified by the four humors for much longer than the germ theory of disease has existed. Those old classifications were wrong. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 21:22:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
i am not talking about Aliens Dude... There is no comparison...this is where confusion sets in I think and debunking becomes the way out... I am talking about The survival of the Human Personality...
No, you're talking about anecdotal evidence. Ghosts, as with aliens, have many many "reports" that are claimed as evidence. If you accept the anecdotal reports of ghosts as evidence, then you should also accept the same for UFOs and alien abduction and little green men who are secretly in control of the government.
quote:
because . I have been a first hand witness to the phenomenon...I grew uo in a house that I believe is haunted...I have come to the conclusion that they are fragments of human personalities that once lived..once occupied where my childhood home rests...
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You reach a conclusion based on zero evidence. You completely ignore the tools available from the scientific method. You "experience" something and then "conclude" that it is a ghost, and that ghosts are "fragments of human personalities".
Until you actually sit down and learn the scientific method, and use it to examine these "phenomenon", you are doing nothing more than engaging in wishfull thinking.
And you never did answer my question about the mathematician/engineer guy. If you think he is qualified to make educated speculations about human consciousness after reading his writing, would you also let him operate on your pets if he had written something about animal surgury? Or would you stick with an actual vet? The question of credentials is a valid one.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2005 : 06:03:50 [Permalink]
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Storm
I know you are being bombarded with post after post, but could you please answer my question from my last post, I'll repost it here.
quote:
Let me ask you this, if I am to take these reported ghostly phenomena at face value, how do I determine the false from the true? Where do I draw the line within the realm of anecdotal evidence? Do Virgin Mary stains really represent a miracle? What of UFO's and abductions? Monsters? Fairies? Magic Spells? Scientology? Gods? Demons? Homeopathy? Touch Therapy? Magic Charms? Pyramids? Faith Healing?
My problem is that if I accept your ghostly phenomena based on anecdotal evidence, then to be consistent I would also have to accept all of these and a whole myriad of others to be consistent and not hypocritical. In fact I would be forced to accept any phenomena reported credibly by 2 or more witnesses. Not much of a way to decipher fact from fiction if you ask me.
quote:
O.k. maybe not millions... but tens of thousands... well bloody peasant have you asked if anyone has been a recipient? I know i have been on numerous occassions... While we know of the "phenomenon" being real... causes are unknown...speculations though are abound...hallucination...fraud...
Add to that list of speculations, decaying consciousness as well. We have evidence that some of the phenomena were fraudulent, some were reported by people definitely suffering from hallucinations, and others have been explained by rare natural phenomena. So we have solid evidence for some natural explanations of these phenomena, but we have no evidence for it being a decaying consciousness.
So I hope you can see that we have some speculations that are better supported by the evidence than yours. In fact we have no evidence of a separate conscious entity that exists outside of the brain, and lots of evidence that it is a product of the brain (brain damage, drugs, etc. as mentioned earlier on this thread). Maybe you have some examples of independent verified evidence that supports your speculation you would like to share?
You see Storm that is another one of the hallmarks of a good scientific explanation for a phenomena. It has multiple examples of independant evidence in support of it. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2005 : 06:49:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
The idea that the brain is just a conduit or receiver for an paranormal/extra-natural residing mind/consciousness adds extra variables and assumptions for which we have no evidence.
I disagree with you about the lack of evidence...besides of course the tens of thousands reports each year,, some of these ameteur Ghost Hunters have really picked up on some anomolies.. what is very difficult about the evidence put forward is that we have yet to find a way to predict ghostly phenomenon...have yet to find a way to measure it...
How many of those sightings are more than just anecdotal?
Are there recordings of those anomolies that are more than just anecdotal?
So, members of SFN: Have anyone else than Storm experienced true paranormal and/or Supernatural phenomenon?
(I'm not talking about "almost woo-woo stories")
The following will be relations of events which are merely anectdotal in scope. I did not take any investigative measures to determine what the root cause was.
1986, I spotted a female in 1890's dress at the end of a halway in my college theater. She was trasparent as I could clearly see items on a corkboard behind the figure. Viewing distance was approx 130 feet (40 m) and free of obstructions. Figure dematerialized upon approach.
1987-8, multiple times while working on set construction alone in a locked theater after 9PM, the tool I had just set down just out of my sight disappeared. I had to retrieve it from the scene shop (downstairs to the stage I was on and left unlocked with the door blocked open.) after unlocking the shop door.
I think there's something out there we don't understand, but we need to be able to measure and analyze it before jumping to any conclusions. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2005 : 12:34:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bloody_peasant
So we have solid evidence for some natural explanations of these phenomena, but we have no evidence for it being a decaying consciousness.
Storm attempted, at one point in time, to suggest that a decaying consciousness might be a natural explanation. Of course, we've got no evidence that consciousness "decays" after death, and the idea appears to violate some of the currently-known laws of physics, so it doesn't appear to be "natural" now. But Storm - as others have done for over a hundred years - is banking on the chance that science will discover some way that consciousness can remain after death.
As the old saying goes, though: if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2005 : 18:39:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H.Humbert:
quote:
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Originally posted by Storm
originally posted by Wreck
quote:
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the tentative conclusion that makes the most sense is that natural phenomena are being misinterpreted
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Exactley!!!!!!!!!! My sentiments exactley!!!! You hit the nail on the head!!!!!!
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I think he means natural phenoma, like swamp gas, are being mistaken as ghosts, Storm. Not that ghosts are a natural phenomenon that people mistake for supernatural. You see, the question is whether ghosts exist or not, not whether they or natural or not. Just because you accept the existence of ghosts unquestionably doesn't mean the rest of us do by a long shot.
Thanks H. You got exactly what I meant. The reported phenomena are due to natural causes, but are misinterpreted as being due to ghosts. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2005 : 12:01:37 [Permalink]
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originally posted by bloody peasant
quote:
Let me ask you this, if I am to take these reported ghostly phenomena at face value, how do I determine the false from the true? Where do I draw the line within the realm of anecdotal evidence? Do Virgin Mary stains really represent a miracle? What of UFO's and abductions? Monsters? Fairies? Magic Spells? Scientology? Gods? Demons? Homeopathy? Touch Therapy? Magic Charms? Pyramids? Faith Healing?
My problem is that if I accept your ghostly phenomena based on anecdotal evidence, then to be consistent I would also have to accept all of these and a whole myriad of others to be consistent and not hypocritical. In fact I would be forced to accept any phenomena reported credibly by 2 or more witnesses. Not much of a way to decipher fact from fiction if you ask me.
Research into ghosts and psi have come a long way in the last 100 years...thoughts and speculations and observations have changed since spiritualism...We can give credit to men like Frederick Myers, Edmund Gurney, GNM Tyrell, Thomas Edison, Tesla...These men came to natural conclusions of ghostly phenomenon...not supernatural..The natural biological disintegration of human personality...
It is soooo hard to say where to draw the line...Science demands predicition...tangible evidence.... I agree..but the fact is there is more than ancedotal evidence...anomolies... You must make the choice as to what to research...and then focus on that...I suggested some great books to start you...
I myself am personally interested in Human Personality and its Survival of Bodily Death...It is my Passion...
Originally posted by Dave
quote:
Storm attempted, at one point in time, to suggest that a decaying consciousness might be a natural explanation. Of course, we've got no evidence that consciousness "decays" after death, and the idea appears to violate some of the currently-known laws of physics, so it doesn't appear to be "natural" now.
I must disagree with you Dave... Join some Parasyghology Club... The Ghost Club...Read the peer reviewed journals from The Society of Psychical Research...Thoughts are changing on the subject...I do not see how it would violate any currently known laws of physics
Originally posted by Wreck
quote:
Thanks H. You got exactly what I meant. The reported phenomena are due to natural causes, but are misinterpreted as being due to ghosts.
Why cannot ghosts be natural? I know exactley what you meant by the natural explanation...but you are right wreck.. you just do not realze it...The disintigration of the Human Personality is the natural explanation for what is labeled....Ghosts... Well that is only half the truth...but that is a hole other post...which belongs more in the religion forum... The Conscious Survival of ones...self ... |
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