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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 05/14/2005 :  10:55:23  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
Ok, now I am going to annoy. It is my belief that the word “fundie” has become so loaded and carries with it so much baggage that it has become nothing less that an ad hominem when used in most cases. All Christians are not fundamentalists but you would never know that based on the bias of some and the corresponding use of the term “fundie” to describe anyone who believes in Christ or God. So, as one who believes that ad homonym's are a logical fallacy, unfair, and do not further a conversation, I plan to not use that term any longer.

Thoughts?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project

the_ignored
SFN Addict

2558 Posts

Posted - 05/14/2005 :  13:24:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message
Wait, you mean you're only going to start annoying people?!!






Seriously, though. I myself only use the word "fundie" to describe the more far out people. Like, say those here or here, who say things like
quote:
Earthquakes are mentioned by Jesus...they cause volcanic eruptions and tidal waves....thus killing people. Where they are taking place is important. Look at the USA. We do have weather issues, but God has been very protecting of us overall when compared to the numbers of deaths by natural disasters in other areas...which are always unchristian and ungodly...and worship idols. I feel the tsunami in Dec is directly linked to the abuse of children in Thailand and their pagan worship of buddah.
Some people even on that board tried to sort of, disagree with that.

I think that for those kind of people, "fundie" seems a perfectly descriptive term. The ones at Theology Web aren't generally as bad.

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 05/14/2005 :  15:38:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
I have old friends who are still more or less active members of the Pentacostal church I once belonged to. But I don't consider them Fundie(tm), because they are relatively intelligent and can think for themselves.

Actually, I had a debate with one of them a while back about the application of the word "fundamentalist" with regards to Christians. And he thought using the word was a misapplication. "Extremist" was a better word to use, as a majority of Christians are mostly harmless/reasonable by skeptics-standards. It's the screwd-up loud-mouths at Rapture Ready that are giving Christians in general a bad name. (And idiots in School-boards trying to impose religious doctrins on innocent bystanders)

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 05/14/2005 :  16:13:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
What are you thoughts on "woo-woo" or "New Age person", Kil? To me, these would be the same as a fundie.

I personally think of it as just a way to describe someones beliefs. Now of course, it can be used as an ad hominem, saying something like, "Your argument makes no sense because your a fundie." However, that's just all descriptive words in general.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 05/14/2005 :  23:58:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

Ok, now I am going to annoy. It is my belief that the word “fundie” has become so loaded and carries with it so much baggage that it has become nothing less that an ad hominem when used in most cases. All Christians are not fundamentalists but you would never know that based on the bias of some and the corresponding use of the term “fundie” to describe anyone who believes in Christ or God. So, as one who believes that ad homonym's are a logical fallacy, unfair, and do not further a conversation, I plan to not use that term any longer.

Thoughts?
Well, I never use the term to refer to "anyone who believes in Christ or God" now. I would never call a Catholic or a Protestant a "fundie." I never refer to a simple theist as a "fundie." A fundie is, and will always remain in my mind, someone within whom the bible supplants all reason. It is for someone for whom the bible is the only source of truth--beyond science, and truly beyond reality itself. Creationists still fall squarely within this definition. I do not plan to cease to use the term where it is applicable.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 05/15/2005 00:04:18
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2005 :  04:00:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Sorry Kil, not annoyed in the least. Indeed, I agree and I've tried to differentiate between believers and idiots, albeit not always successfully, in my writing.

I think that a fundalmentalist anything is bad. It is the sort of ridgitity that we should have left behind us during the Renasance, but did not. It leads to the sort of deadly madness that we saw during the 9/11 attacks, and the foolishness we've just observed in KS. And they are all evangelical, these fundies. Only their beliefs are the true course for all mankind.

Fundie capitalism could lead to slavery, and has; fundie socialism to communism.

I would even be suspicious of a fundamentalist skeptic. The silly bastard would worry himself into Bedlam over triviality, and take as many as he could with him.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2005 :  09:45:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

What are you thoughts on "woo-woo" or "New Age person", Kil? To me, these would be the same as a fundie.

I personally think of it as just a way to describe someones beliefs. Now of course, it can be used as an ad hominem, saying something like, "Your argument makes no sense because your a fundie." However, that's just all descriptive words in general.


People in the New Age refer to themselves as promoting New Age ideas. I have never offended a New Ager by calling them a New Ager. That is because they agree, that is what they are, and proudly so. Some people have new age ideas that I do refer to as woo woo. And as for woo woo, I dunno. You may have a point there. But woo woo ideas are directly linked to the new age, unlike the word fundie which is sometimes used to portray all those who are theists as fundamentalists, a trend I have noticed. Woo woo's really are making new age claims. Otherwise we wouldn't call them woo woo.

I guess what I am saying is that the word fundie has been used as an over generalized label to describe those who are not necessarily fundamentalist. It has often become an anti Christian label.

I know that there are those who are careful to apply the word only to fundamentalists, but that is not even close to how the word is applied generally. And with that in mind, and to avoid confusion or the apperance of bigotry, it might be best to avoid the word entirely.

One other thing. There are those who have recently left their faith, declared themselves atheists and harbor deep anger at anyone who is “stupid” enough to believe. When they see the word fundie, they have often not yet developed the ability to understand what we may mean when we use the word fundie. So we have to be careful. One way to do that is to be more precise in our language. That is, if we care enough to set an example to others who are new to critical thinking and our free thinking ways.

quote:
Originally posted by filthy

Sorry Kil, not annoyed in the least. Indeed, I agree and I've tried to differentiate between believers and idiots, albeit not always successfully, in my writing.

I think that a fundalmentalist anything is bad. It is the sort of ridgitity that we should have left behind us during the Renasance, but did not. It leads to the sort of deadly madness that we saw during the 9/11 attacks, and the foolishness we've just observed in KS. And they are all evangelical, these fundies. Only their beliefs are the true course for all mankind.

Fundie capitalism could lead to slavery, and has; fundie socialism to communism.

I would even be suspicious of a fundamentalist skeptic. The silly bastard would worry himself into Bedlam over triviality, and take as many as he could with him.





I have to agree with Filthy. Fundamentalists of every stripe are a serious problem. Any group that operates from the certainty that they have cornered the market on the truth is dangerous. The trick is to recognize who they are and define them appropriately.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2005 :  15:03:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

....

I have to agree with Filthy. Fundamentalists of every stripe are a serious problem. Any group that operates from the certainty that they have cornered the market on the truth is dangerous. The trick is to recognize who they are and define them appropriately.


Hey! Can't I be fundamentally a science or evidence based believer without being a "serious problem"?
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2005 :  20:32:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
Just calling somebody a name isn't a logical fallacy, it is just namecalling.

The ad-hominem fallacy occurs when you use the name calling in a way that claims a person is wrong because of what you are calling them.

Ad-hom- "What would a fundie like you know about science anyway?"

Not ad-hom- "Gdamn retarded fundie! STFU!"


So yeah, it is a fallacy to claim victory in an argument "because" your opponent is a fundie. But it is not a logical fallacy to just call them names.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2005 :  21:15:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

Hey! Can't I be fundamentally a science or evidence based believer without being a "serious problem"?
The proper analogy between a Christian fundamentalist and a science fundamentalist would involve a person who claims that every word in a particular science textbook is true, even after 2,000 years. After all, there are plenty of theologians who are engaged in a process of active learning about religion, without claiming that the Bible is the literal Word of God and inerrant. But they're not fundamentalists - in fact the fundies revile them as much as they hate atheists.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2005 :  08:09:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

quote:
Originally posted by Kil

....

I have to agree with Filthy. Fundamentalists of every stripe are a serious problem. Any group that operates from the certainty that they have cornered the market on the truth is dangerous. The trick is to recognize who they are and define them appropriately.


Hey! Can't I be fundamentally a science or evidence based believer without being a "serious problem"?



Since all conclusions in science are tentative, the answer is yes. I would consider you only a minor problem…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2005 :  08:31:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

Just calling somebody a name isn't a logical fallacy, it is just namecalling.

The ad-hominem fallacy occurs when you use the name calling in a way that claims a person is wrong because of what you are calling them.

Ad-hom- "What would a fundie like you know about science anyway?"

Not ad-hom- "Gdamn retarded fundie! STFU!"


So yeah, it is a fallacy to claim victory in an argument "because" your opponent is a fundie. But it is not a logical fallacy to just call them names.




Yeah, I suppose your right on this. Good point. Just one thing though. In the sentence “Gdamn retarded fundie!” it just might be that it is the word “retarded” that is the ad-hom since it implies that the fundie is unable to learn.





Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2005 :  09:24:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Dang fundie lover.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2005 :  12:15:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
In the sentence “Gdamn retarded fundie!” it just might be that it is the word “retarded” that is the ad-hom since it implies that the fundie is unable to learn.



It is context dependent. It becomes a fallacy of logic if you are claiming that some other point being made is incorrect because of the name you are calling them.

And, technically, derogatory descriptions aren't even insults if they accurately describe something.

I would agree that the shortening of "fundamentalist" to "fundie" is intended only as an insult however.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 05/17/2005 :  10:29:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
But my science fundamentalism is re the scientific process not any currently supported theories or the content of any current data collection.

Actually, I was using a different concept of fundamentalism so never mind.
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