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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
 Posted - 06/19/2005 : 02:07:54
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The thinking goes that as science uncovers more and more of how the universe works there is less and less need for any god to be invoked to explain things. Afterall SHe only works in so-called mysterious ways, right? Wrongie. To a religionist like myself, science is about discovering the ways in which God "does it". I fully expect God's working to be lawful at all levels of reality. Although, I will grant that when higher laws impinge on lower ones there may be the *appearance* of mysterious behaviour from the perspective of the lower levels. To a higher being it would all be quite regular.
So to skeptics who rejoice everytime a new law of nature is uncovered, another "gap" supposely closed; as you sun youself in the illusion you have yet another excuse to justify your unbelief: why not rejoice instead that you're that much closer to discerning the workings of the Mind of the Maker? 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 03:19:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
The thinking goes that as science uncovers more and more of how the universe works there is less and less need for any god to be invoked to explain things. Afterall SHe only works in so-called mysterious ways, right? Wrongie. To a religionist like myself, science is about discovering the ways in which God "does it". I fully expect God's working to be lawful at all levels of reality. Although, I will grant that when higher laws impinge on lower ones there may be the *appearance* of mysterious behaviour from the perspective of the lower levels. To a higher being it would all be quite regular.
So to skeptics who rejoice everytime a new law of nature is uncovered, another "gap" supposely closed; as you sun youself in the illusion you have yet another excuse to justify your unbelief: why not rejoice instead that you're that much closer to discerning the workings of the Mind of the Maker?
As I cannot disprove the existence of God(s) any more than you can verify it/them, I'll concede the point.
However, as these so-called gaps are filled, it becomes more and more apparent that there is no need for some superior entity. Now, that doesn't mean that such does not exist, it means only that one seems to be unnecessary in the natural world, as you have pointed out.
Unless of course, that entity, in all of the vastness of the universe, has nothing better to do than to tinker and futz around with the evolution of us and our little mud-ball of a planet. If this be's the case, He/She/It needs to get a life.
Edit: Is this going to be one of those 'irreductably complex' arguments that the ID crowd is so fond of?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 06/19/2005 03:33:53 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 04:47:31 [Permalink]
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Why are you so worried about proving the existence of your "higher level being" to us?
Science is not concerned with proving or disproving the existence of a supernatural being. It is concerned with explaining what we observe, period. Supernatural beings are best left to the philosophers/theologists where they belong. Ergo, science should be taught in science class, and god should be taught in religious/philosophy class. There, public schools are fixed now.
I personally do not "believe" in any gods or goddesses. I am open to the possibility that they exist, however I require concrete proof, not "since current science can't explain, it must be god". That is a lazy way of thinking.
And if a god is proved to exist, I will still not believe, since belief will no longer be required. But I will have a lot of serious questions and I may choose not to worship said being anyway (why do bad things happen to good people, why does Pat Robertson exist, etc...) Worship through fear of eternal damnation is morally bankrupt to me, and that is why christianity, islam, and other simular religions look like bronze age philosophy to me and are no longer applicable in the current world. Christians, for example, who say the "love god" fail to see that they have rationalized their fear of hell into "love", i.e. Stockholm Syndrome, because they conviently forget what caused them to convert in the first place - fear, lonelieness, depression, financial/physical ailments - the dark side are these.
Kinda like the current US president. Yes, he does exist, but I don't like him and no one can force me to like him. If I have to say I like him or be killed, I may say it, but that doesn't mean I really like him, I'm just saving my own skin.
But I digress.
The curious thing to me is that this line of thought seems so straightforward and simple (not hubris speaking, mind you) that why most other people cannot view the world this way astounds me. But what other people believe is of no concern to me UNTIL it directly affects myself or my family. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 06/19/2005 05:06:03 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 05:36:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
The thinking goes that as science uncovers more and more of how the universe works there is less and less need for any god to be invoked to explain things...
So to skeptics who rejoice everytime a new law of nature is uncovered, another "gap" supposely closed; as you sun youself in the illusion you have yet another excuse to justify your unbelief: why not rejoice instead that you're that much closer to discerning the workings of the Mind of the Maker?
If you know of any skeptics who actually believe what you say they believe, let me know. We generally don't have a problem with people like yourself, who feel that science is teasing out the method of God's creation. There are millions of scientists working today who believe exactly that, and such beliefs don't conflict with anything we can know.
Where the "God of the gaps" becomes a problem is with those people who say "science cannot explain this thing here, so God must have been responsible for it." By saying things like that, their version of God gets smaller and smaller every time science progresses. It isn't rejoicing you hear from skeptics, it's pity at the fact that someone's idea of the divine is so powerless as to be overturned by newly discovered data.
So, in the other thread when you implied that "mind-meaning" and "spirit-value" (whatever those really mean) were only really applicable where science fails to explain things, it appeared to be a "God of the gaps" sort of statement. But if you actually value the spiritual side of your life, you should probably find a better way to integrate it, since scientific knowledge grows daily. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 08:37:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie:
Although, I will grant that when higher laws impinge on lower ones there may be the *appearance* of mysterious behaviour from the perspective of the lower levels.
Can you tell us a about these "higher laws" and "lower laws"? Maybe give a few examples of each, and a reference so we can verify their validity. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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solidsquid
New Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 12:14:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by markie:
Although, I will grant that when higher laws impinge on lower ones there may be the *appearance* of mysterious behaviour from the perspective of the lower levels.
Can you tell us a about these "higher laws" and "lower laws"? Maybe give a few examples of each, and a reference so we can verify their validity.
[/quote]
I concur with this request. |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 12:37:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Unless of course, that entity, in all of the vastness of the universe, has nothing better to do than to tinker and futz around with the evolution of us and our little mud-ball of a planet. If this be's the case, He/She/It needs to get a life.
God shares and delegates and of course would be very happy doing so. It wasn't ultimate Deity who planted life here on our planet and who oversees planetary affairs. (And there would be billions of inhabitted planets.) But God does have a personal interest and investment in each human being. We are being nurtured and developed so that we too have a hand in bringing the universe to ever increasing perfection.
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 13:09:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Why are you so worried about proving the existence of your "higher level being" to us?
No worries. I have no illusions of proving God's existence to anyone. What I want to do is show that belief in and allegiance to Perfect Deity is reasonable in an advancing civilization.
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
I personally do not "believe" in any gods or goddesses. I am open to the possibility that they exist, however I require concrete proof,
I again wonder what kind of evidence would be required for belief.
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
And if a god is proved to exist, I will still not believe, since belief will no longer be required. But I will have a lot of serious questions and I may choose not to worship said being anyway
That is what free will is about, if you believe in it.
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
why do bad things happen to good people, why does Pat Robertson exist, etc...)
I found that *very* funny!
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Worship through fear of eternal damnation is morally bankrupt to me,
And it is.
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
fear, lonelieness, depression, financial/physical ailments - the dark side are these.
A Star Wars and Yoda fan I see, great!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 13:10:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
why not rejoice instead that you're that much closer to discerning the workings of the Mind of the Maker?
There is this little thing called evidence.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 13:26:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
If you know of any skeptics who actually believe what you say they believe, let me know.
Didn't Filthy just say
However, as these so-called gaps are filled, it becomes more and more apparent that there is no need for some superior entity
?
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
It isn't rejoicing you hear from skeptics, it's pity at the fact that someone's idea of the divine is so powerless as to be overturned by newly discovered data.
Well put.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
So, in the other thread when you implied that "mind-meaning" and "spirit-value" (whatever those really mean) were only really applicable where science fails to explain things, it appeared to be a "God of the gaps" sort of statement. But if you actually value the spiritual side of your life, you should probably find a better way to integrate it, since scientific knowledge grows daily.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Meanings and values are interwoven throughout all of life. Are you saying I should find a better way to integrate the spiritual side of life with science? Dude, that's what I'm about here!
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 13:42:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie:
Although, I will grant that when higher laws impinge on lower ones there may be the *appearance* of mysterious behaviour from the perspective of the lower levels.quote:
Originally posted by R. Wreck:
Can you tell us a about these "higher laws" and "lower laws"? Maybe give a few examples of each, and a reference so we can verify their validity.
A lower law wold be, say, the laws of electromagnetism. An example of a higher law impinging on lower law mechanisms would be the phenomena of life and consciousness. In other words, life and consciousness cannot be explained by the (low) laws of physics we know (imo). They would seem rather mysterious. Oh sure, we can *call* life and consciousness "emergent" properties of (lower) matter and energy, but as we know, calling it so doesn't make it so. That, too, would be a matter of faith.
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 14:06:42 [Permalink]
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I vaguely recall an (olden) saying which I liked enough to remember the gist of it. It went something like this:
As the island of man's knowledge grows, so does the shoreline of his ignorance.
In other words, the more we know, the more we become aware of what we don't know. A gap of ignorance is closed, but two more gaps open up before us.
This seems to describe well the progress of science. But strangely enough a general scientific attitude in the last hundred years tends to be that the theory of 'everything' is just around the corner. That attitude assumes of course that what there is to know about the universe is finite and derived from a very small number of fundamental properties.
The alternative, which I believe, is that the universe arose from the mind and doings of infinite Deity, and so the universe itself has the potential to harbour aspects of reality which we can't even begin to imagine or count, let alone explore. In this lifetime anyways.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 15:04:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
The alternative, which I believe, is that the universe arose from the mind and doings of infinite Deity, and so the universe itself has the potential to harbour aspects of reality which we can't even begin to imagine or count, let alone explore. In this lifetime anyways.
And I might argue that it was trajectory-puked by the Vestal Vulture in a last ditch defense against the Celestial Hypnotoad (All hail the Hypnotoad!!). It's as good a conjecture as any yet put forth.
quote:
God shares and delegates and of course would be very happy doing so. It wasn't ultimate Deity who planted life here on our planet and who oversees planetary affairs. (And there would be billions of inhabitted planets.) But God does have a personal interest and investment in each human being. We are being nurtured and developed so that we too have a hand in bringing the universe to ever increasing perfection.
History and current events might argue against this. How would you define 'nutured' and 'developed,' and indeed, 'perfection' in this context? Could this signify that He/She/It failed to get it right on the first try?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 17:20:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
If you know of any skeptics who actually believe what you say they believe, let me know.
Didn't Filthy just say
However, as these so-called gaps are filled, it becomes more and more apparent that there is no need for some superior entity
?
Seems he did. Odd, that.quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
So, in the other thread when you implied that "mind-meaning" and "spirit-value" (whatever those really mean) were only really applicable where science fails to explain things, it appeared to be a "God of the gaps" sort of statement. But if you actually value the spiritual side of your life, you should probably find a better way to integrate it, since scientific knowledge grows daily.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.
Well, for one thing, I'm trying to get you to define "mind-meaning" and "spirit-value" as terms that we can both use in this and other threads so that we'll be talking about the same thing.quote:
Meanings and values are interwoven throughout all of life.
Indeed, but are they "mind-meanings" and "spirit-values?" I really couldn't say.quote:
Are you saying I should find a better way to integrate the spiritual side of life with science?
If it is your contention that mind-whatever and spirit-stuff only take over where science leaves off, then yes. It sure seemed like that's what you were saying in the other thread, but this is now the third time I've implicitly asked you to clarify this position, and I'm getting less hopeful about getting an answer each time.quote:
Dude, that's what I'm about here!
Didn't seem that way to me. Seemed like more run-of-the-mill skeptic-bashing from a wanna-be philosopher religionist. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 17:41:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
So to skeptics who rejoice everytime a new law of nature is uncovered, another "gap" supposely closed; as you sun youself in the illusion you have yet another excuse to justify your unbelief: why not rejoice instead that you're that much closer to discerning the workings of the Mind of the Maker?
Why? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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