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 A thread for hybrid to debunk evolution for us.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2005 :  17:33:48  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
Ok. Here's your chance. There are some rules I'll ask you to follow.

I'll ask SFN members to follow the same rules in this thread also.

1. Learn the quote feature. NO bolding a sentence (of your own words) inside a quote by another, as it confuses who is actually saying what.

2. Be respectfull.

3. No unevidenced claims. You must provide a source for all claims of fact.

4. Stay on topic. Evolution is a broad topic, just make sure posts deal directly with some aspect of it, or directly respond to another post.

5. If needed, I'll ask the moderators to enforce the rules.

---------------------------------------------------------------


Originally posted by HYBRID:

quote:
Please, stop saying that bones and a theory is emperical evidence to make this weak ass theory true. So the species came out of the trees because they say so, where is the ABSOLUTE PROOF you require so much. Please stop saying the same things over and over again. This is a contradiction!NEXT



and....

quote:
Evolution is a theory full of holes and lacks much evidence. Pretty much the theory of evolutions takes 'evidence' and creates a story with that with no absolute proof, but absolute proof is what science is based on.
We don't have any intermediate species to study, we don't have the exact species that came out of the trees and why, I could do this all day with this holey theory, but the point is that there is hardly anything definite about the theory. You have got some skeletons, and an imagination which created the whole thing.


1st, nothing about science requires "absolute" proof. The fact that you think it does demonstrates a significant gap in your knowledge of what science is.

Now, if you would be so kind, please LIST these "holes" that you mentioned. Just break them down into a simple sentence each, use the bullet feature or just make a numbered list. After each "hole", go ahead and take a paragraph and explain it in detail, providing sources for evidence (if you have any).


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth

HYBRID
BANNED

USA
344 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2005 :  17:40:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HYBRID a Private Message
First of all, I don't use words like 'debunk', its degrading. Also, who are you to set guidelines for me to explain MY point of view. What is this your cute little attempt to shut me up, or prove I am 'delusional'. It kind of pissed me off. And lets not talk about being disrespected. I had to hold back on some things I wanted to say after I was talked down to, either overtly or covertly.

I have dropped alot of info as it is, you have not dealt with it that yet. So when you deal with the stuff I posted before, then we can talk. I am not in the repeating myself business, and furthermore, I don't like the way you tried to post this, as you try to 'debunk' me.

If I felt like I wasn't waisting my time, maybe I would hold your little hand and go through the motions with you. But until then, you just sit back and keep doing what you are doing, which is not much.
Edited by - HYBRID on 07/12/2005 17:41:24
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2005 :  17:46:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
Also, who are you to set guidelines for me to explain MY point of view. What is this your cute little attempt to shut me up, or prove I am 'delusional'


I'm just trying to provide a thread in which you can defend your statements concerning evolution, without the hostility. If you chose to not participate, thats up to you.


quote:
If I felt like I wasn't waisting my time, maybe I would hold your little hand and go through the motions with you.


So, you fully admit you are incapable of listing and explaining any "holes" in evolutionary theory? Fine by me.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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HYBRID
BANNED

USA
344 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2005 :  18:14:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HYBRID a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

quote:
Also, who are you to set guidelines for me to explain MY point of view. What is this your cute little attempt to shut me up, or prove I am 'delusional'


I'm just trying to provide a thread in which you can defend your statements concerning evolution, without the hostility. If you chose to not participate, thats up to you.


quote:
If I felt like I wasn't waisting my time, maybe I would hold your little hand and go through the motions with you.


So, you fully admit you are incapable of listing and explaining any "holes" in evolutionary theory? Fine by me.





You don't pay attention do you? I never said that I could not point out the holes. I said I have pointed out SOME important ones already, and I would waiste my time upon deaf ears. But I feel there is 0 way that I can post that kind of information without immediate ridicule. Even though I care less of what people think, I want to be able to get certain points across, with out waisting my time, effort, and energy.

I could post plenty of sources to back my 'beliefs', but you may blow it off like it is irrelevant. And that will get us no where.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2005 :  20:22:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID

First of all, I don't use words like 'debunk', its degrading. Also, who are you to set guidelines for me to explain MY point of view. What is this your cute little attempt to shut me up, or prove I am 'delusional'. It kind of pissed me off. And lets not talk about being disrespected. I had to hold back on some things I wanted to say after I was talked down to, either overtly or covertly.

I have dropped alot of info as it is, you have not dealt with it that yet. So when you deal with the stuff I posted before, then we can talk. I am not in the repeating myself business, and furthermore, I don't like the way you tried to post this, as you try to 'debunk' me.

If I felt like I wasn't waisting my time, maybe I would hold your little hand and go through the motions with you. But until then, you just sit back and keep doing what you are doing, which is not much.



If you can't handle criticism of your ideas, which so far it seems that you can't, you are on the wrong board.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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HYBRID
BANNED

USA
344 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2005 :  20:52:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HYBRID a Private Message
I can take criticism of anything buddy. I already have in real life, why would i be afraid on a little punk ass website, when I will never see any of you anyway. I mean come on. But this is a skeptic website, and I have to be very careful on how I present my ideas in full. But I am still wondering is it worth it though.

You see, there are things that I think are so, and other you don't. How do we find a meeting ground? I don't think it is possible anymore.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2005 :  21:17:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID

I can take criticism of anything buddy. I already have in real life, why would i be afraid on a little punk ass website, when I will never see any of you anyway. I mean come on. But this is a skeptic website, and I have to be very careful on how I present my ideas in full. But I am still wondering is it worth it though.

You see, there are things that I think are so, and other you don't. How do we find a meeting ground? I don't think it is possible anymore.

Maybe you need to evaluate your motives for posting here in the first place.

Was it to learn about skeptical thinking? That doesn't seem to be the case, as you refuse to even open links about skepticism.

Was it to offer up your personal beliefs to skeptical scrutiny? That doesn't seem to be it either, as you claim your beliefs are personal opinions and are not subject to our examination.

Was it to tell us how dumb and dogmatic we all are? It would appear so, since your only consistent claim is that "you are only trying to open a few minds." (Arrogantly assuming they are shut to begin with). However, that is a two-way process. We have no reason to see your beliefs as any more relevant than anyone else's. You have strong opinions, but thus far haven't been able to do more than make sweeping generalities about subjects some people spend a lifetime examining. The manner in which you mischaracterize scientists is insulting to a great many people. You apparently do not see how dismissing people's life work is at all offensive. It is, very much so. So, no, people were not mean to you first. You came out of the gate swinging.

But look, this is the common ground: we are willing to look fairly and open-mindedly at whatever evidence on whatever subject you choose if you present your arguments clearly and concisely. Spamming a page of links and saying "Do the research, I did" will not cut the mustard. Use links to support your arguments, not in place of them. We WILL pick your arguments apart. Saying that they are only your opinion and not open to scrutiny is not good enough. If that is how you feel, then why are you trying to share them with anyone else? Either your ideas have substance or they do not. No one is going to try and tell YOU what to think, but neither are they just going to allow you to tell THEM what they should think.

So that is how it stands. You have many, let's say, "controversial" ideas. We would be foolish to accept all or any of them without a thorough investigation. You can man up and lay out your reasoning, or you can give up by pretending to yourself that we can never be persuaded anyway. Dude has offered to isolate a single subject and allow you to lay out your arguments. You refuse to do so.

The ball is in your court.

"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/12/2005 21:25:38
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2005 :  00:09:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
I said I have pointed out SOME important ones already, and I would waiste my time upon deaf ears. But I feel there is 0 way that I can post that kind of information without immediate ridicule.


You have done nothing except make claims that there are "holes" in the theory. You have yet to articulate any of them, though I admit I may have missed it if you did, due to your extremely confusing posting formats.

I will ask the mods to strictly enforce civility in this thread, they will do it if asked and nobody (including regular members of the site, you, me, and even the site's sponsor) would be exempt from a moderator stepping in and deleting uncivil posts.

If you chose to engage in a civil conversation on this topic, then its up to you to make your case now. You can even start with one single "hole" if you want. We can limit the discussion to one point at a time, and you get to choose the point.

Just list it, lay out an argument to support it, and provide reference for claims/evidence that you present.

As H.H. said, "The ball is in your court." And if you begin to make a case here, I'll PM Dave_W and ask him to enforce civility from all parties who choose to post in this thread, if he doesn't do it from just reading this post.




Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend

313 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2005 :  03:15:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send woolytoad a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

[quote]If you chose to engage in a civil conversation on this topic, then its up to you to make your case now. You can even start with one single "hole" if you want. We can limit the discussion to one point at a time, and you get to choose the point.



I googled on Hybrid's profile info just for kicks. Seems that he has a history, albeit a very short one according to google, of starting arguments without finishing them, being rude and poor formatting. To be fair, in one instance he got banned. Back then he didn't seem to use the quote button.

http://www.ufoartwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=bcdb72f925049995e651d3fba70553b2

http://www.space-talk.com/ForumE/showthread.php3?threadid=2033&pagenumber=2
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2005 :  05:46:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Recent experience has shown me that this is probably an excersize in futility, but never the less, in the interest of trying to get a reasonable debate going, I'll put up this very interesting portion of the fossil record, and ask for comment:
quote:
Bacteria: Fossil Record

It may seem surprising that bacteria can leave fossils at all. However, one particular group of bacteria, the cyanobacteria or "blue-green algae," have left a fossil record that extends far back into the Precambrian - the oldest cyanobacteria-like fossils known are nearly 3.5 billion years old, among the oldest fossils currently known. Cyanobacteria are larger than most bacteria, and may secrete a thick cell wall. More importantly, cyanobacteria may form large layered structures, called stromatolites (if more or less dome-shaped) or oncolites (if round). These structures form as a mat of cyanobacteria grows in an aquatic environment, trapping sediment and sometimes secreting calcium carbonate. When sectioned very thinly, fossil stromatolites may be found to contain exquisitely preserved fossil cyanobacteria and algae.

The picture above is a short chain of cyanobacterial cells, from the Bitter Springs Chert of northern Australia (about 1 billion years old). Very similar cyanobacteria are alive today; in fact, most fossil cyanobacteria can almost be referred to living genera. Compare this fossil cyanobacterium with this picture of the living cyanobacterium Oscillatoria:

So, what are, well, anyone's opinions regarding stromatolites, and why and how did you come to your conclusions?


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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HYBRID
BANNED

USA
344 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2005 :  09:12:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HYBRID a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

quote:
I said I have pointed out SOME important ones already, and I would waiste my time upon deaf ears. But I feel there is 0 way that I can post that kind of information without immediate ridicule.


You have done nothing except make claims that there are "holes" in the theory. You have yet to articulate any of them, though I admit I may have missed it if you did, due to your extremely confusing posting formats.

I will ask the mods to strictly enforce civility in this thread, they will do it if asked and nobody (including regular members of the site, you, me, and even the site's sponsor) would be exempt from a moderator stepping in and deleting uncivil posts.

If you chose to engage in a civil conversation on this topic, then its up to you to make your case now. You can even start with one single "hole" if you want. We can limit the discussion to one point at a time, and you get to choose the point.

Just list it, lay out an argument to support it, and provide reference for claims/evidence that you present.

As H.H. said, "The ball is in your court." And if you begin to make a case here, I'll PM Dave_W and ask him to enforce civility from all parties who choose to post in this thread, if he doesn't do it from just reading this post.







That was all I was asking, was not to be jumped verbally, as soon as I question something. You see, we can have converstions without all that other crap (but I can do that well to, but it won't get us anywhere).I appreciate how you came at me. Now that wasn't hard was it?
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2005 :  09:55:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID

quote:
Originally posted by Dude

quote:
I said I have pointed out SOME important ones already, and I would waiste my time upon deaf ears. But I feel there is 0 way that I can post that kind of information without immediate ridicule.


You have done nothing except make claims that there are "holes" in the theory. You have yet to articulate any of them, though I admit I may have missed it if you did, due to your extremely confusing posting formats.

I will ask the mods to strictly enforce civility in this thread, they will do it if asked and nobody (including regular members of the site, you, me, and even the site's sponsor) would be exempt from a moderator stepping in and deleting uncivil posts.

If you chose to engage in a civil conversation on this topic, then its up to you to make your case now. You can even start with one single "hole" if you want. We can limit the discussion to one point at a time, and you get to choose the point.

Just list it, lay out an argument to support it, and provide reference for claims/evidence that you present.

As H.H. said, "The ball is in your court." And if you begin to make a case here, I'll PM Dave_W and ask him to enforce civility from all parties who choose to post in this thread, if he doesn't do it from just reading this post.







That was all I was asking, was not to be jumped verbally, as soon as I question something. You see, we can have converstions without all that other crap (but I can do that well to, but it won't get us anywhere).I appreciate how you came at me. Now that wasn't hard was it?



Please commence with your first "hole".

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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HYBRID
BANNED

USA
344 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2005 :  10:11:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HYBRID a Private Message
What I would like to do is not debunk evolution, no not at all. Evolution is evident in nature in life forms,plants, animals, in everything. Universes change, the sun changes, the earth definitely changes.

My point is this, the theory of evolution as far as human beings are concerned is a little different. I do believe that species change after hundreds of millions of years and adapt to CERTAIN living conditions to survive. I don't think that the fossil record at the present time reflects the advancement of hominid into human beings according to the theory thus far. A hundred thousand years or so ago, Human beings just started popping up, literaly evolving from the homo species that was there habilis/ erectus into humans, when it was suppossed to take millions of years for this to happen. The incline of civilization and technology in the last 6000 years according to this theory of slow gradual evolution, is just not possible. I really stress that you really sit back and think about this.

Furthermore, there is tons of evidence( and when I say something like this, challenge me to find these things out for yourself, read them in depth for yourself, and then determine what you think about these things, don't comment if you have only been researching something for like twenty minutes. I have been researching what I do not believe to be true, as in evolution in human species for sometime, how long have you really researched what you think is not true, in depth in books and professionals) that contradicts the theory altogether.

Anatomically modern human bones found from millions of years ago, gigantic human bones, modern humans of men that stood 14 ft tall, perfectly shaped metallic spheres blown out of solid coals. These are not isolated incedents. These things I speak of have been recorded since the founding of our country, but further back in other parts of the world.

And at this point I am not trying to explain any reason for these things, I am merely identifying them.

Also the fact, the simple fact, that if you think that you can find out everything about the past of the earth and human beings by diggin into the earth and looking up remains, you are sadly mistaken. The earth changes, soil and plates shift, 'evidence' dissapears, breaks down. When you dig up 'evidence' as you call it, it only tells a fraction of the tale, an important one, but not the whole story. There is 0 way to know exactly what happened, and since there are no records kept of what exactly happened, you have to make it up in your mind or imagine it, because that is what it is, what you think happened is how the theory ever came about.
But according to science, you are not supposed to make up anything, it is ALL supposed to be on data taken exactly when this or that happened. But when it comes to the evolution of how humans came to be, this is an exception. This is a problem. (Check some of those sources I posted for SOME evidence of the opposite of evolution, if you want more, i'll post more)

Now to say that evolution is a fact, yes. But to say that humans evolved into the creatures we are now according to the evidence available, this cannot be. And furthermore, you don't have the play by play of how the evolution took place when necessary the transitions from apelike species to more humanlike species tookplace and why, and ultimately, you just have bones of the species, but the story of how the and why the transitions were made, is literally made up, the one thing you don't do in science. Problem #1.

Problem #2, any person with credibility to break down the theory, is ridiculed and shunned until they do not exist, what are they not professionals in their field? Are they not professional enough to know when something is wrong? These are questions you need to ask yourself.

A while back, someone said, where are the academics behind evolution being incorrect, and I should have said, do you think I would be involved or say anything about it if there was not?

Do some of you think that just because you all are skeptics, that anyone who is not one will believe anything? That if we think something, that there is no way that it could be justified or that there is no evidence of this?

Another problem, there are no, 0 intermediate species that are showing that they are still evolving, in apes or anywhere else in creation.The type of evolution that happened, as in how we humans have become, is just on a level that staggers belief.Evolution is based on nature selecting certain species to survive, and others to die out, was used in the past to justify genetic racism(not saying that anyone here would do that).I once had a class with a kid who said that it was okay that people inafrica died in massive numbers because according to darwins theory, the weaker species would die out anyway, wow!

These are just a few problems, and it has taken me a while to do this, so lets see how this goes from here, and maybe I'll say more.
Edited by - HYBRID on 07/13/2005 10:50:18
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HYBRID
BANNED

USA
344 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2005 :  10:14:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HYBRID a Private Message
And I don't just use websites as my sources, I read books and plenty of them. Websites are secoundary sources, but it is the best form of world communication that we have right now.
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HYBRID
BANNED

USA
344 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2005 :  10:51:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HYBRID a Private Message
I had some typos on that first post, but I think I have made the necessary corrections, re-read it please.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2005 :  10:55:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID


Also the fact, the simple fact, that if you think that you can find out everything about the past of the earth and human beings by diggin into the earth and looking up remains, you are sadly mistaken. The earth changes, soil and plates shift, 'evidence' dissapears, breaks down. When you dig up 'evidence' as you call it, it only tells a fraction of the tale, an important one, but not the whole story. There is 0 way to know exactly what happened, and since there are no records kept of what exactly happened, you have to make it up in your mind or imagine it, because that is what it is, what you think happened is how the theory ever came about.
But according to science, you are not supposed to make up anything, it is ALL supposed to be on data taken exactly when this or that happened. But when it comes to the evolution of how humans came to be, this is an exception. This is a problem. (Check some of those sources I posted for SOME evidence of the opposite of evolution, if you want more, i'll post more)

Now to say that evolution is a fact, yes. But to say that humans evolved into the creatures we are now according to the evidence available, this cannot be. And furthermore, you don't have the play by play of how the evolution took place when necessary the transitions from apelike species to more humanlike species and why, ultimately, you have bones of the species, but the story of how the and why the transitions were made, is literally made up, the one thing you don't do in science. Problem #1.


I don't agree here. The Nylon bug (flavobacterium which feeds on nylon) was genetically compared to other flavobacterium and a frame shift was discovered in their DNA sequence. The mechanism for change is still theory, but something better hasn't come along.


Source for Nylon bug assertation:
http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm

quote:

Problem #2, any person with credibility to break down the theory, is ridiculed and shunned until they do not exist, what are they professionals in their field? Are they professional enough to know when something is wrong? These are questions you need to ask yourself.

A while back, someone said, where are the academics behind evolution being incorrect, and I should have said, do you think I would be involved or say anything about it if there was not?




People who have evidence that evolution's mechanism for change is invalid usually have to provide an alternate explaination. This tends to be a Creationist modle based on conjecture and not evidence. It is for this reason that their attempts fail and they earn ridicule.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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