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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 07/17/2005 : 00:07:16 [Permalink]
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All of this raises the question, then, how did dinosaurs ever manage to get so big?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/17/2005 00:07:35 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2005 : 03:00:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
All of this raises the question, then, how did dinosaurs ever manage to get so big?
God done it, o'course.... 
Actually the vast majority of known dinosaurs were quite small. But a look at the skeletons of the big ones show massive bones and joints with correspondingly huge muscle attachment points.
As there was a plentiful and pretty much constant food supply for the plant eaters, there was a certain advantage to being gigantic. A predator would think twice before attacking a healthy Diplodicus. And it works both ways in that really huge carnivores such as Tyrannosarus and it's relatives are now thought to have been primarly scavengers; terrestial vultures writ large. Another big one, dead or crippled of age, injury, or disease, would provide for it quite well as long as it could defend the carcass from others, mainly of it's own species.
The reason for this last is that T. rex was built for comfort, not speed. A couple of years ago, Jack Horner published a paper demonstrating that this animal's thigh is a bit longer than it's shin signifying a walker rather than a runner. Also, equally as telling, is that the ofactory center (forgotten the name) of the brain is rather like those found in today's turkey vulture (Cathartes aura), much larger than in any other bird, and taking up a goodish portion of the brain. The turkey vulture hunts by scent. Thus, we have a tremendous eating machine and a powerful walker, trudging along, testing the wind. The only known, natural enemies it had were others of it's species who would contest it for a carcass, not unlike modern scavengers. Some T. rex bones have been found bearing scores that could have only come from the serrated teeth of another.
The pictured, bloody battles between this animal and Triceratops probably never happened, alas, unless the ceratopsian was all but down to start with, and then it would have been no contest. Other, smaller bipedal dinos, carnivores and vegeterian, were far better suited for running, with longer arms to help balance them and legs in better proportion for the task.
This limb differential can be seen in modern ratites such as the ostrich, and it shows even in our tasty friend, the chicken -- built for speed.
If an ecological niche is available, evolution will fill it with a species nicely suited for it, as the giant reptiles were for theirs. The niche was open, and thus it was filled.
The dinos lived in a world of bounty. It was not until after they had gone extinct that mammals were able to gain more than a slight foothold (and it's been all downhill from there). But even then, in some cases bigger is better. Megatherium, while nowhere near the size of the afore mentioned reptiles, was still a giant by our standards.
I remember well the professional wrestler, Andre the Giant. In the latter years of his too short life, he lived in constant joint pain due to carrying his prodigious weight on an elongated but entirely human frame.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 07/17/2005 03:15:14 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2005 : 07:58:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
The thing is, its only one of me and how many of you, and you still can't get the job done. This should be the -want to be skeptic site.
In regard to how this thread has turned, I wonder if hybrid is still willing to claim victory. I suspect that he will and not return, to this thread anyway. Well done Dave and all others.
edited to add "and all others" |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 07/17/2005 08:00:32 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2005 : 08:17:34 [Permalink]
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Of course, I came in late. The real credit goes to "all others."
And, of course, we "can't get the job done" because HYBRID feels that "blah, blah, blah" and "yawn" and refusing to examine the evidence are all valid forms of argumentation. The only way to "get the job done" in the face of that nonsense would be to hunt the guy down and physically impose our data upon his brain, just as he's implied.
On the other hand, this thread was supposed to be for him to debunk evolution. He is the one who's failed. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2005 : 09:17:11 [Permalink]
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Well, p'raps he's merely on a summer trip somewhere and will be back, but I doubt it. We've seen his style so many times before that I'm tempted to classify it into a Bibical 'kind.'
I wonder, is he really attending a college? His writing skills are so very poor that, if I were one of his instructors, he'd be hard pressed to acheave a passing grade. And the attitude.... 
But that's bad-mouthing the absent -- not cool, and really little fun if they are not around to defend themselves.
I rather like the direction the thread has taken. It's become interesting and informative, unlike eariler.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2005 : 12:11:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt
Agreed. Of course scaling the muscles up by a factor of five without changing the muscle and bone arrangement would hardly result in a strictly human body shape either.
Which was my point, all along.  I think your "nitpick" was really an agreement.
You really are quite good at turning a persons own words against them. 
I wasn't disagreeing with your point at all. I was merely pointing out that the muscles would not necessarily have to be scaled up to quite the degree that you seemed to be indicating that they would.
Also I've heard that pound for pound chimp muscle is actually six times stronger than human muscle. I don't have a reference for this, so I may be mistaken. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2005 : 23:07:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
All of this raises the question, then, how did dinosaurs ever manage to get so big?
When the first heterotrophic organism began to appear, and predation became a common method of gathering nutrients, size became a significant selective advantage for any organism, be it prey or predator.
quote:
Also I've heard that pound for pound chimp muscle is actually six times stronger than human muscle. I don't have a reference for this, so I may be mistaken.
There are many variables that effect strength. Bone size, shape, and density, joint structure, tendon and ligament insertion points all have an effect on the kinetics of motion. Some levers can just apply more force than others. Then take into account the ratio of fast/slow twitch muscle fibers, muscle tissue with a high percent of fast twitch will be stronger than those with less fast twitch. And I'm sure there are more factors that I can't think of off the top of my head.
Also human muscle tissue is capable of exerting more force than you think. We have a couple of feedback mechanism that prevent us from applying it however, mainly pain. Human muscles, especially highly conditioned ones, are capable of exerting enough force to rip your own muscle insertions from the bone, and in some cases of breaking the bones they are attached to...
Overcomming the pain associated with excessive exertion, and generating more power than is strictly safe, is probably what made a certain set of old Norse warriors so feared when they put on their bear shirts.... that and their indiscriminate killing, of course.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend
313 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2005 : 04:52:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Also human muscle tissue is capable of exerting more force than you think. We have a couple of feedback mechanism that prevent us from applying it however, mainly pain. Human muscles, especially highly conditioned ones, are capable of exerting enough force to rip your own muscle insertions from the bone, and in some cases of breaking the bones they are attached to...
Yep. 3rd paragraph.
http://www.thedoctorslounge.net/clinlounge/procedures/neurology/ect.htm |
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2005 : 14:24:32 [Permalink]
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| I'm still around. Just haven't felt like or seen anything worth discussing. When I feel the need for a good argument, as well as the time. Fucking with you guys I need like a couple of hours or days. And yes I am still claiming victory. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2005 : 14:42:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hybrid:
And yes I am still claiming victory.
Cool. I'm claiming victory too! And I haven't even posted in this thread... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2005 : 15:31:00 [Permalink]
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| Since you're still hanging around HYBRID, what were those questions that stumped your professors? |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2005 : 16:06:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
what were those questions that stumped your professors?
He has obviously mistaken the exasperated look of a professor unwilling to engage his confrontational style as a sign of his victory. Odds are they were just looking at him and saying to themselves, "I have 75 midterms to grade, no time to argue with this illiterate fool."
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2005 : 16:10:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
He has obviously mistaken the exasperated look of a professor unwilling to engage his confrontational style as a sign of his victory. Odds are they were just looking at him and saying to themselves, "I have 75 midterms to grade, no time to argue with this illiterate fool."
That is one possibility, and his unwillingness to supply those questions does not falsify that view. I would, however, want to know those questions.
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2005 : 21:41:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
what were those questions that stumped your professors?
He has obviously mistaken the exasperated look of a professor unwilling to engage his confrontational style as a sign of his victory. Odds are they were just looking at him and saying to themselves, "I have 75 midterms to grade, no time to argue with this illiterate fool."
That's funny! |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2005 : 02:15:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
what were those questions that stumped your professors?
He has obviously mistaken the exasperated look of a professor unwilling to engage his confrontational style as a sign of his victory. Odds are they were just looking at him and saying to themselves, "I have 75 midterms to grade, no time to argue with this illiterate fool."
That's funny!
I thought so too.
I didn't really expect us to be on the same page, HYBRID. Ever...
But here we are!
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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