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 Bush: Intelligent design should be taught
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trishran
Skeptic Friend

USA
196 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2005 :  14:27:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send trishran a Private Message
I saw a multi-episode show on PBS about evolution a couple of years back. In one of the last episodes, they interviewed a bunch of teens who were in favor of teaching "alternatives" to evolution. The thing is, they were quite eloquent about creationism and what it entails. It didn't sound to me like they needed to be taught creationism, they were completely familiar with all its claims. This just confirmed for me how much we need evolution taught in the schools - whether you major in science or not. And it sounds like the forcing of creationism in schools is a political thing, another attempt to breach the church/state wall.

I have to wonder how Yale alumni, students, administrators and faculty feel about Yale Alumnus George W. Bush stumping for such a backward theory.

trish
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2998 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2005 :  14:44:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
I think that having Yale/Harvard as your alma mater doesn't necessarily make one educated...

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Stargirl
Skeptic Friend

USA
94 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2005 :  17:08:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Stargirl a Private Message
Not that it would surprise anyone here but it seems that Bush is going against his own science advisor on this one. More details at Media Matters. I think he is mainly pandering to his base and could care less if it means children will not receive a good education.

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him - Voltaire
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend

Sweden
385 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2005 :  02:43:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Maverick a Private Message
It's a good thing that the voters thought Bush was fit to be the leader of the free world and the most powerful man in the world. He's surely the right man for the job.

"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend

Sweden
385 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2005 :  02:44:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Maverick a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

I think that having Yale/Harvard as your alma mater doesn't necessarily make one educated...


Apparently he didn't study any science at university. All well with that, as not everyone does that. However, surely he had to take biology at some point in high school?

"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2005 :  03:34:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by woolytoad

quote:
Originally posted by filthy

quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Ah, maybe you guys are right. It's just that most kids don't even come out of high school with a firm grasp of evolution itself. I'm not sure they'd be able to absorb why other "theories" fail. But maybe if a teacher could at least hammer home the point that Creationism and ID are deeply flawed and roundly rejected by scientists, it might act as a buffer if they're exposed to them later in life.



Yes, exactly.

But of course, the rat turd in that bowl of soup is the teachers themselves. I am reminded that Kent Hovind taught high school science for some 15 years :shudder:. I think that teachers qualification standards should be higher in all subjects.

These kids are, at least for the most part, not stupid. It is true that their thought process' are not at the same level as adult's (depending upon the adult in the comparison ), but they are not all that far behind. They are perfectly capable of using logic to sort out contradictions if given sufficent information. Give them excellent teachers, you will end up with a good percentage of excellent students.

I do not know the facts of this, but I have read that at grammar and highschool levels, we are far behind Europe and elsewhere in our academic standards. Oddly, or perhaps not, it shows up in here now and again, in the atrocious grammer and structure in the writings by some posters claiming to be students.





Sooo ... who's going to pay for better teachers?

We are, one way or another. Pay now, or pay through the nose later.

This whole thing is generating a most satisfying backlash, I heve hopes that it will help in bringing the ID bullshit into a stronger public focus that will start a real and hopefully honest debate, although honesty has been shown to be as forign to the RR as microbes on Mars.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend

313 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2005 :  05:34:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send woolytoad a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Maverick

quote:
Originally posted by pleco

I think that having Yale/Harvard as your alma mater doesn't necessarily make one educated...


Apparently he didn't study any science at university. All well with that, as not everyone does that. However, surely he had to take biology at some point in high school?



I studied bio at high school. Evolution while (probably) mentioned was not studied that rigourously. High school science in general doesn't really cover anything really deep.

quote:
We are, one way or another. Pay now, or pay through the nose later.


I'm not saying I don't agree with you, but really, it's pretty fucking obvious that we need better teachers now and nothing is really being done about it. In Australia, I remember something on the news a few months back about teachers being unable to solve the most basic problems in the subjects they teach (this was for science and math).

Send your kids to private schools.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2005 :  05:54:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
I'm not saying I don't agree with you, but really, it's pretty fucking obvious that we need better teachers now and nothing is really being done about it. In Australia, I remember something on the news a few months back about teachers being unable to solve the most basic problems in the subjects they teach (this was for science and math).


I got the wrong impression. Apologies...

Too true, too true. Until recently, I was going into schools giving presentations on wildlife, notably reptiles including venomous serpents. In discussions with the teachers, I found that all too many them were hazy on even the most basic science; teaching mainly by rote from the book. They memorized the passage but not the gist. Depressing...

On the plus side, those who were good teachers were very good indeed.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Maverick
Skeptic Friend

Sweden
385 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2005 :  07:35:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Maverick a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by woolytoad

quote:
Originally posted by Maverick

quote:
Originally posted by pleco

I think that having Yale/Harvard as your alma mater doesn't necessarily make one educated...


Apparently he didn't study any science at university. All well with that, as not everyone does that. However, surely he had to take biology at some point in high school?



I studied bio at high school. Evolution while (probably) mentioned was not studied that rigourously. High school science in general doesn't really cover anything really deep.

In years 7-9 in elementary school we went through some basic biology, including very basic evolution. In gymnasium* we went through evolution a bit more in depth but still just scratching the surface. However I think it was enough to give a basic understanding of it.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_%28school%29

"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan
Edited by - Maverick on 08/04/2005 07:38:56
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2005 :  08:04:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Maverick

quote:
Originally posted by woolytoad

quote:
Originally posted by Maverick

quote:
Originally posted by pleco

I think that having Yale/Harvard as your alma mater doesn't necessarily make one educated...


Apparently he didn't study any science at university. All well with that, as not everyone does that. However, surely he had to take biology at some point in high school?



I studied bio at high school. Evolution while (probably) mentioned was not studied that rigourously. High school science in general doesn't really cover anything really deep.

In years 7-9 in elementary school we went through some basic biology, including very basic evolution. In gymnasium* we went through evolution a bit more in depth but still just scratching the surface. However I think it was enough to give a basic understanding of it.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_%28school%29


Likewise.
I say, how we learned it, it was pretty much easy and reasonable to understand. No magic, unlikely stuff that 'just happened'.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2005 :  20:51:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy:

Too true, too true. Until recently, I was going into schools giving presentations on wildlife, notably reptiles including venomous serpents. In discussions with the teachers, I found that all too many them were hazy on even the most basic science; teaching mainly by rote from the book. They memorized the passage but not the gist. Depressing...



Years ago we were able to give tours of the atom factory, and I often filled the role of tour guide. By far the most scientifically ignorant and just plain dumb group I ever had the misfortune of showing around was a bunch of math and science teachers. The questions they asked, the opinions they spouted, and the difficulty they had with the most basic procedures relating to security and radiation protection were astonishing. I sincerely hope that this bunch was a statistical anomoly and not representative of teachers in general. Although after reading some of the Kansas Bored of Education heating transcripts, I think our educational system may be in more trouble that we realize.

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2005 :  21:08:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
By far the most scientifically ignorant and just plain dumb group I ever had the misfortune of showing around was a bunch of math and science teachers. The questions they asked, the opinions they spouted, and the difficulty they had with the most basic procedures relating to security and radiation protection were astonishing. I sincerely hope that this bunch was a statistical anomoly and not representative of teachers in general.
That it happened even once is unsettling.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend

Australia
249 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2005 :  21:10:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dry_vby a Private Message
Why would anyone with any intelligence want to be a teacher in the educational system?

That's like expecting honest people to want to become politicians.

"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."

Bob Dylan
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2005 :  02:02:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
Bush is commended by Bill D(biting my tounge)embski:

Why President Bush Got It Right about Intelligent Design By William A. Dembski, August 4, 2005(pdf)
Some gems:
quote:
Intelligent design is a winner in the public debate over biological origins not only because it has the backing of powerful ideas, arguments, and evidence but also because it does not turn this debate into a Bible-science controversy. Intelligent design, unlike creationism, is a science in its own right and can stand on its own feet.
quote:
Accordingly, intelligent design should be understood as the evidence that God has placed in nature to show that the physical world is the product of intelligence and not simply the result of mindless material forces. This evidence is available to all apart from the special revelation of God in salvation history as recounted in Scripture.
quote:
Intelligent design makes it impossible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.

See PZ Meyers pharyngula on this: So...the Designer is Jesus.

"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones
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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend

313 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2005 :  03:07:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send woolytoad a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dry_vby

Why would anyone with any intelligence want to be a teacher in the educational system?

That's like expecting honest people to want to become politicians.



So that I can change the system from the inside and use their evil powers for good!
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