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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2005 :  02:14:21  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
Softball interview with Behe in the Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1567967,00.html

Absolutely nothing new from Behe, mouse traps, flagellums and Galileo.

What a self-absorbed dolt!


http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html

"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2005 :  03:34:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Starman

Softball interview with Behe in the Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1567967,00.html

Absolutely nothing new from Behe, mouse traps, flagellums and Galileo.

What a self-absorbed dolt!


http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html


Behe is an over-educated cretin and a dishonest scientist, and I think he's running out of material. I've been hearing that mousetrap booshwah for longer than I care to remember. I think I'll kill it, now...

If you remove a part from a mousetrap, then you no longer have a mousetrap; you have something else. And that, oversimplified, is the way evolution works. But unlike the mechanical trap, which is a collection of parts that don't do the job nearly as well as my house 'possum, evolution works on living species. Take away limbs from a land mammal, and you have a whale; lengthen the fingers of a tree-dwelling insectivore, turning it into a less effecient climber, and you have a glider, and ultimatly a bat; remove a few toes from a horse's ancestor, and you have a faster horse.

Remove the common sense from a scientist, and you have an ID blitherer.

All rather simplistic, but that's the way of the IDiots. Basic mecahnics: reduce the mousetrap to it's component parts, and you have a wooden base that can be used for lots of things. I once used one to shim a window I was installing. As far as I know, it's still in there. The spring will put tension anywhere it might be needed, and the bail is a handy piece of wire. I can't readily think of a use for the bait pan, but neither can a cave fish come up with a use for the eyes that it still has vestages of. The staples, of course, make good staples for a light fence.

Thus has our mousetrap "evolved," after a manner of speaking, into several other things.

Given sufficent time, irreductable complexity cannot exist in nature. Our battered, little planet has had 4.5 billion years to iron out the kinks. And add some new ones -- our spines, for example, are a relativly recent development for a biped, and they don't work all that well. Yet.

Behe is full of shit. As has been often stated: you cannot change facts, only spin, ignore, or lie about them.



"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 09/21/2005 03:55:10
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2005 :  03:50:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Hah! Just found this at Red State Rabble:
quote:
Wednesday, September 21, 2005

Cowbirds, Parasitism, and Intelligent Design
Red State Rabble reader Neil M. was eating lunch at his desk, reading Scientific American, and thinking about the many spurious arguments for intelligent design coming out of Seattle's Discovery Institute when it suddenly occurred to him that -- huge though their brains may be -- the boys at Discovery could not possibly have come up with any of their many arguments for intelligent design in the absence actual science.

Behe, Dembski, and others talk about irreducible complexity, their favorite examples are the many proteins in the blood that are involved in clotting. They talk, also, about the structure of the eye, and bacterial flagella. They talk, and they talk, and they...

But, Neil asks, how would anyone know anything about the structure of the eye, or proteins in the blood, or even what a protein is, for that matter, without science?

Infallible though it may be, you can't look any of these things up in the Bible.

This is an excellent point that set RSR to thinking:

Perhaps we should begin to think of intelligent design not as a theory, or an intuition, or even a glimmer in Behe's eye, but rather as a form of intellectual parasitism -- a half-baked concept become cowbird that propagates by laying its eggs in the nests of other birds leaving its young to be raised by the unfortunate hosts.

In the same way the cowbird slips into the nests of others to lay her eggs, dissolute intelligent design "theorists" want to drop their ill-formed idea off in science classrooms with a note pinned to its jacket -- "please take care of little so and so."

The intelligent design dilettante -- like the cowbird -- refuses to do the hard work of field or laboratory research to feed and clothe their gawky child. They refuse to nurture the little monster they've so crudely stitched together in that Frankensteinian laboratory in Seattle.

I'm told that robins push cowbird eggs out of their nests...

In a nutshell, ladies and gentlemen, in a nutshell.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 09/21/2005 03:52:21
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markie
Skeptic Friend

Canada
356 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2005 :  07:12:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send markie a Private Message
Well glory Behe.

Of course I think Behe has some very good points, and some points are a little worn. Behe will not run out of material. As long as science progresses into understanding the mechanisms of the cell, the more Behe-like material will be forthcoming.

The genius of life and it's creators is that the parts of the mousetrap, while used as a mousetrap in one moment, are dissassembled and used for something else at another time. Very dynamic. Hey that's life.

Sure all things don't work optimally at all times, there are accidents, but life overall has a well nigh miraculous track record.


Oh well, the atheist who thinks that life is essentially an fortuitous accident of nature should at least be able to take the less fortuitous accidents of nature in stride.


Mark

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2005 :  07:22:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by markie

Well glory Behe.

Of course I think Behe has some very good points, and some points are a little worn. Behe will not run out of material. As long as science progresses into understanding the mechanisms of the cell, the more Behe-like material will be forthcoming.

The genius of life and it's creators is that the parts of the mousetrap, while used as a mousetrap in one moment, are dissassembled and used for something else at another time. Very dynamic. Hey that's life.

Sure all things don't work optimally at all times, there are accidents, but life overall has a well nigh miraculous track record.


Oh well, the atheist who thinks that life is essentially an fortuitous accident of nature should at least be able to take the less fortuitous accidents of nature in stride.


Mark



Ah, but we do; we do...

However, that doesn't signify that we can't bitch about them.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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markie
Skeptic Friend

Canada
356 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2005 :  09:34:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send markie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

Ah, but we do; we do...

However, that doesn't signify that we can't bitch about them.




Hehe, I suppose that bitchin' in moderation can be somewhat therapeutic. Look at Job, and he wasn't even a moderate. :)

And who knows, maybe the fringe benefit of a vertical and vulnerable spine is the kind of consiousness humans enjoy.

It seems that snakes are well endowed in the spine department, but just look at the price they pay in their mental world. :)

Mark
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26015 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2005 :  10:28:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by markie

Of course I think Behe has some very good points...
Name one.
quote:
...and some points are a little worn.
They are entirely old young-Earth creationist arguments, reworded to sound more "scientific."
quote:
Behe will not run out of material.
Can you name one new point Behe has introduced to the world in the last 10 years? He's already run out of material, in the sense that a comedian who tells the same jokes over and over has run out of material.
quote:
As long as science progresses into understanding the mechanisms of the cell, the more Behe-like material will be forthcoming.
Actually, as science has progressed, it has made Behe's arguments less convincing. We now have plausible step-by-step processes to turn a secretory system into a flagellum, whereas when Behe first pointed to the latter structure, we were ignorant of much of it.
quote:
The genius of life and it's creators is that the parts of the mousetrap, while used as a mousetrap in one moment, are dissassembled and used for something else at another time. Very dynamic. Hey that's life.
And that is nearly the polar opposite of Behe's argument. Are we talking about the same Michael J. Behe here?
quote:
Oh well, the atheist who thinks that life is essentially an fortuitous accident of nature should at least be able to take the less fortuitous accidents of nature in stride.
Which is precisely why I don't sulk over my wife's bad back, or the fact I might choke to death on a morsel of food. Many religious folk, meanwhile, are busy blaming gay people for hurricane Katrina.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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markie
Skeptic Friend

Canada
356 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2005 :  12:03:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send markie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by markie

Of course I think Behe has some very good points...
Name one.

Let me start to say that I read Behe's book maybe a decade(?) ago, and have been largely out of the loop for about that same amount of time. Behe's main point, that the molecular machinery of the cell 'looks' intelligently designed, is the primary thing I agree with.

quote:
Behe will not run out of material.
quote:
Can you name one new point Behe has introduced to the world in the last 10 years? He's already run out of material, in the sense that a comedian who tells the same jokes over and over has run out of material.


What I mean is, science will uncover more of the amazing machinery of the cell, and guys like Behe will have that much more to describe. His basic argument, or 'punch line' will likely be the same, but he will have more ways to tell the joke.


quote:
Actually, as science has progressed, it has made Behe's arguments less convincing. We now have plausible step-by-step processes to turn a secretory system into a flagellum, whereas when Behe first pointed to the latter structure, we were ignorant of much of it.
I will agree that *some* aspects of what Behe is saying (like irreducible complexity) are pretty weak. I find it surprising that Behe, who believes that evolution and mircoevolution *has* occurred, does not appear to take seriously the steps at the molecular machinery level which have been part of that evolutionary process.

quote:
The genius of life and it's creators is that the parts of the mousetrap, while used as a mousetrap in one moment, are dissassembled and used for something else at another time. Very dynamic. Hey that's life.
quote:
And that is nearly the polar opposite of Behe's argument. Are we talking about the same Michael J. Behe here?

Those are my ideas, served as somewhat of a correction to Behe's. Again, I find it surprising that he doesn't bring out this aspect. At least I didn't recall it.



quote:
Oh well, the atheist who thinks that life is essentially an fortuitous accident of nature should at least be able to take the less fortuitous accidents of nature in stride.
quote:
Which is precisely why I don't sulk over my wife's bad back, or the fact I might choke to death on a morsel of food. Many religious folk, meanwhile, are busy blaming gay people for hurricane Katrina.


Which is so strange, because those same religious folk must know that tragedy has struck the supposedly 'godly' at other times.

About backs. The good thing is that sometimes bad backs can be remedied, by the 'intelligent design' of some practioners. Personally, I've experienced gradual (now complete) healing from chronic injuries (back and groin) I suffered through back in primary and secondary school from doing athletics.

I've also experienced a spontaneous healing about eight years ago, but I won't go into that. Let's put it this way, if Filthy or your wife had their backs healed spontaneously, I personally would have little reason to be skeptical of the report. :)

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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2005 :  13:24:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
I spontaneously 'healed' (i.e., stopped feeling horrible pains that would make me cry of pain even if I kept absolutely still) from a bad hip degenation (carthilage cap basically ate itself). Why? How? I don't know, but it never bothered me (at least, not to that extent) again.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2005 :  15:49:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Too late for my frame. It's had 2 surgeries and is nailed together with pins. I read somewhere that, truama not withstanding, almost everybody suffers back problems at one time or another, and guess what: we are the only biped that does because we are the only biped with a quadraped's spine.

Y'see, evolution never actually invents anything. It always works from whatever's at hand, modifying and re-building to better fit the ecological niche the animal's population occupies. If that niche should change, through the enviornment or immigration, so gradually will the population, if it initally survives.

Only populations, particularly isolated ones, evolve; never individuals, and sometimes in some very odd ways.



Thus, we are fitted with spines that would be better suited to a hound-dog.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 09/21/2005 15:57:10
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2005 :  17:42:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
I wish my hip would spontaneously regenerate. God knows I need it. But chance are rather slim, so I rely on painkiller to keep me mobile.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26015 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2005 :  18:08:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by markie

Let me start to say that I read Behe's book maybe a decade(?) ago, and have been largely out of the loop for about that same amount of time. Behe's main point, that the molecular machinery of the cell 'looks' intelligently designed, is the primary thing I agree with.
Yeah, and a boob "looks" like a mountain (from a certain angle), but that's where the similarity ends, and no causative links between the two can be deduced from appearances.
quote:
What I mean is, science will uncover more of the amazing machinery of the cell, and guys like Behe will have that much more to describe. His basic argument, or 'punch line' will likely be the same, but he will have more ways to tell the joke.
And the more we discover about how natural processes shape the cell, the less convincing his basic argument becomes.
quote:
I will agree that *some* aspects of what Behe is saying (like irreducible complexity) are pretty weak. I find it surprising that Behe, who believes that evolution and mircoevolution *has* occurred, does not appear to take seriously the steps at the molecular machinery level which have been part of that evolutionary process.
Why would it surprise you? Behe is an old-Earth Christian creationist. His argument exists solely to try to demonstrate that God created life as we know it. Admitting that natural processes could shape the cell is antithetical to that goal.
quote:
Those are my ideas, served as somewhat of a correction to Behe's. Again, I find it surprising that he doesn't bring out this aspect. At least I didn't recall it.
Again: Behe's goal is not to further scientific knowledge, but instead to jam God into science. Your ideas are contrary to that goal.
quote:
Which is so strange, because those same religious folk must know that tragedy has struck the supposedly 'godly' at other times.
Indeed, they ignore the fact that the Bible says that it rains on the saint and sinner alike.
quote:
I've also experienced a spontaneous healing about eight years ago, but I won't go into that. Let's put it this way, if Filthy or your wife had their backs healed spontaneously, I personally would have little reason to be skeptical of the report. :)
As would I. Spontaneous remission of disease isn't all that rare. Even cancers, in general, spontaneously remit perhaps 5% of the time. One of my psoriasis patches spontaneously remitted.

Of course, all that "spontaneous remission" means is that we weren't trying to treat the condition, but it went away, anyway. It in no way speaks to why the healing took place.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 09/22/2005 :  06:36:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
Here is yet another example of ID honesty:

http://www.yorkdispatch.com/local/ci_3042920
quote:
Teaching intelligent design is not unconstitutional, but the institute doesn't support the Dover school board's stand because it doesn't want intelligent design to become a political issue, said Casey Luskin, program officer in the Public Policy and Legal Affairs department at the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture.

He said the Discovery Institute is "not trying to hinder their case in court," but the organization wants intelligent design to be debated by the scientific community, not school boards.

I would not trust these liars to tell me the time of day.

Read about it in :
http://thequestionableauthority.blogspot.com/2005/09/chutzpah-pure-chutzpah.html

"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones
Edited by - Starman on 09/22/2005 06:44:24
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2998 Posts

Posted - 09/22/2005 :  07:31:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
it doesn't want intelligent design to become a political issue


<cough>Bullshit!</cough>

The last place they want a debate is in the scientific community. Their best chance is a political debate appealing to the people as a whole who (for some reason) are not trained in the science the way they should be. An emotional debate, appealing to the irrational and intellectually lazy, they could win.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 09/22/2005 :  07:50:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by markie
<snip>
I've also experienced a spontaneous healing about eight years ago, but I won't go into that. Let's put it this way, if Filthy or your wife had their backs healed spontaneously, I personally would have little reason to be skeptical of the report. :)

"Spontaneous" suggests the disease disappeared for no reason with the implication that some supernatural intervention caused the healing. But certainly there were reasons, it's just that nobody could or cared to identify what they were. It's illustrative of the limitations of observation and understanding, not of any intervention by God into the personal health of an individual.

-Chaloobi

Edited by - chaloobi on 09/22/2005 07:51:32
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 09/22/2005 :  07:59:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

The last place they want a debate is in the scientific community. Their best chance is a political debate appealing to the people as a whole who (for some reason) are not trained in the science the way they should be. An emotional debate, appealing to the irrational and intellectually lazy, they could win.
Check out The Questionable Authority's dissection of DI's list of "Peer-Reviewed and Peer-Edited Publications Supporting the Theory of Intelligent Design"

"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones
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