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Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend

Australia
249 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2005 :  16:20:17  Show Profile Send Dry_vby a Private Message
Religion shows it's true worth, again:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/US-serial-killer-gets-10-life-sentences/2005/08/19/1123958204913.html

Quote:

"In a rambling, disjointed statement offered just prior to the sentencing, Rader called himself a Christian, quoted a Bible verse and talked about demons he referred to as "factor x" that drove him to torture and kill.

"I hope some day God will accept me. The dark side was there, but now I think light is beginning to shine," he told the judge."




"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."

Bob Dylan

pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2005 :  16:44:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
If he accepts jesus and his lord and saviour (or maybe just does some good deeds while in jail, I guess it depends on which interpretation of the bible you want), then he avoids hell and goes to heaven. Yah, that sounds about right.


by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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soda_farl
New Member

43 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2005 :  17:00:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send soda_farl a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dry_vby

Religion shows it's true worth, again:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/US-serial-killer-gets-10-life-sentences/2005/08/19/1123958204913.html

Quote:

"In a rambling, disjointed statement offered just prior to the sentencing, Rader called himself a Christian, quoted a Bible verse and talked about demons he referred to as "factor x" that drove him to torture and kill.

"I hope some day God will accept me. The dark side was there, but now I think light is beginning to shine," he told the judge."


Maybe you are being facetious, but personal redemption is the value of religion. His actions were the result of an abondonment of religious values and in no way reflective of the teachings of Christ. Having said that, nobody is beyond redemption if he/she sincerely repents his/her evil acts and becomes receptive to God's grace. Since time immemorial people have exploited religion just as they will exploit anything for pecuniary gain, self- aggrandizement or to maintain the status quo, but that does not mean that whatever insidious acts the barbarians at the gate commit defines religious values.


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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2005 :  17:13:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
Maybe you are being facetious, but personal redemption is the value of religion. His actions were the result of an abondonment of religious values and in no way reflective of the teachings of Christ. Having said that, nobody is beyond redemption if he/she sincerely repents his/her evil acts and becomes receptive to God's grace.


Not according to any version of the bible I have read. God kills people, then he kills their relatives, then their children, and so on.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2005 :  17:24:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
His actions were the result of an abondonment of religious values


I have abandoned so-called "religious values", so am I a serial-murder, or just a potential?

His actions are the result of something far more complex than what you stated. But I'm sure it helps you sleep better at night to think what you do. Better that than trying to understand.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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GeeMack
SFN Regular

USA
1093 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2005 :  17:57:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GeeMack a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco...
His actions are the result of something far more complex than what you stated. But I'm sure it helps you sleep better at night to think what you do. Better that than trying to understand.
Or if not better, at least easier than trying to understand. Some people don't have the mental capacity to understand, but most simply don't have the desire or motivation. Some people can't/won't take responsibility for themselves and seem to do better by selecting others as their leaders or choosing to live under the authority of gods. In that regard Dennis Rader and soda_farl may have more in common than is immediately apparent.
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2005 :  18:00:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
Maybe you are being facetious, but personal redemption is the value of religion. His actions were the result of an abondonment of religious values and in no way reflective of the teachings of Christ. Having said that, nobody is beyond redemption if he/she sincerely repents his/her evil acts and becomes receptive to God's grace. Since time immemorial people have exploited religion just as they will exploit anything for pecuniary gain, self- aggrandizement or to maintain the status quo, but that does not mean that whatever insidious acts the barbarians at the gate commit defines religious values.
Hi, soda, and welcome to SFN. I have a point of contention with your argument that "his actions were the result of an abondonment of religious values." This isn't entirely true. While one could convincingly argue that "religious values" as is generally held in Western society does not endorse, say, killing, torture and so on, it's difficult to argue that "abandoning" those values means that killing, torture, and so on are fair game. As an example, I'll cite myself. I have no religion and yet I do not kill or torture. Thus, my completely non-religious values acheive the same as your religious ones. (Except I don't go to church, beg pray to invisible gods, and so on.)

So what we can say is that this guy's killing and torture wasn't so much an abandonment of religious values as it was an adoption of some very anti-Western, anti-society values.
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soda_farl
New Member

43 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2005 :  18:40:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send soda_farl a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack

quote:
Originally posted by pleco...
His actions are the result of something far more complex than what you stated. But I'm sure it helps you sleep better at night to think what you do. Better that than trying to understand.
Or if not better, at least easier than trying to understand. Some people don't have the mental capacity to understand, but most simply don't have the desire or motivation. Some people can't/won't take responsibility for themselves and seem to do better by selecting others as their leaders or choosing to live under the authority of gods. In that regard Dennis Rader and soda_farl may have more in common than is immediately apparent.


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soda_farl
New Member

43 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2005 :  18:48:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send soda_farl a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

quote:
His actions were the result of an abondonment of religious values


I have abandoned so-called "religious values", so am I a serial-murder, or just a potential?

His actions are the result of something far more complex than what you stated. But I'm sure it helps you sleep better at night to think what you do. Better that than trying to understand.



I could answer your question if you were more specific about which particular relgious values you have abononded. If you have cast aside the commmandment "Thou shalt not kill" or "Love they neighbor as thyself, for instance, clearly you could possibly be a "potential". I find it curious that people fail to recongize the possibility that some people make the conscious choice to commit evil acts purely as an act of their free will and without their choice being rooted in mental illness.
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soda_farl
New Member

43 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2005 :  18:52:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send soda_farl a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist

quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
Maybe you are being facetious, but personal redemption is the value of religion. His actions were the result of an abondonment of religious values and in no way reflective of the teachings of Christ. Having said that, nobody is beyond redemption if he/she sincerely repents his/her evil acts and becomes receptive to God's grace. Since time immemorial people have exploited religion just as they will exploit anything for pecuniary gain, self- aggrandizement or to maintain the status quo, but that does not mean that whatever insidious acts the barbarians at the gate commit defines religious values.
Hi, soda, and welcome to SFN. I have a point of contention with your argument that "his actions were the result of an abondonment of religious values." This isn't entirely true. While one could convincingly argue that "religious values" as is generally held in Western society does not endorse, say, killing, torture and so on, it's difficult to argue that "abandoning" those values means that killing, torture, and so on are fair game. As an example, I'll cite myself. I have no religion and yet I do not kill or torture. Thus, my completely non-religious values acheive the same as your religious ones. (Except I don't go to church, beg pray to invisible gods, and so on.)

So what we can say is that this guy's killing and torture wasn't so much an abandonment of religious values as it was an adoption of some very anti-Western, anti-society values.




To deny that western values are in part based upon Judeo-Christian values is to turn a blind eye to history. I matain that historically, the perversion of Judeo-Christian values is responsible for killing, both on a personal level and on a grander scale such as state sponsored genocide such as we have witnessed in Central America, Iraq and Hiroshima to note just a few examples.
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soda_farl
New Member

43 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2005 :  18:55:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send soda_farl a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack

quote:
Originally posted by pleco...
His actions are the result of something far more complex than what you stated. But I'm sure it helps you sleep better at night to think what you do. Better that than trying to understand.
Or if not better, at least easier than trying to understand. Some people don't have the mental capacity to understand, but most simply don't have the desire or motivation. Some people can't/won't take responsibility for themselves and seem to do better by selecting others as their leaders or choosing to live under the authority of gods. In that regard Dennis Rader and soda_farl may have more in common than is immediately apparent.



I can assure you that I have nothing in common with Denis Rader and take extreme umbrage at the suggestion that I do. I have a question for you. What do you find more objectionable, stupidity or willfull ignorance?
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2005 :  19:00:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl

quote:
Originally posted by pleco

quote:
His actions were the result of an abondonment of religious values


I have abandoned so-called "religious values", so am I a serial-murder, or just a potential?

His actions are the result of something far more complex than what you stated. But I'm sure it helps you sleep better at night to think what you do. Better that than trying to understand.



I could answer your question if you were more specific about which particular relgious values you have abononded. If you have cast aside the commmandment "Thou shalt not kill" or "Love they neighbor as thyself, for instance, clearly you could possibly be a "potential". I find it curious that people fail to recongize the possibility that some people make the conscious choice to commit evil acts purely as an act of their free will and without their choice being rooted in mental illness.



I didn't realize that "thou shalt not kill" (for example) was a purely religious value. I would say that and other values were adopted by religions from other sources.

I find some of the religious values in some religions, like the Old Testament in the bible, to be abhorrent (and the "jesus took away the OT" doesn't fly).

And who said anything about free will?

EDIT: spelling

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Edited by - pleco on 08/18/2005 19:04:41
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Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend

Australia
249 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2005 :  19:26:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dry_vby a Private Message
Rader is a vile creature and to say that all he has to do is accept Jesus as his lord and saviour and he will be forgiven is a complete abomination to me.

The fact that he is a christian did not stop him from committing any of his heinous acts but instead is used as justification by him, shows the paucity of your peurile beleifs.

I can not accept a religion that condones this monsters abhorrent behavour in any way, free will or no free will.

"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."

Bob Dylan
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soda_farl
New Member

43 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2005 :  19:33:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send soda_farl a Private Message
I assumed that when you made the statement that I did not understand that his actions were the result of something far more complex than what I had stated, that you were alluding to mental illness. If that is not the case, perhaps you could be more specific about exactly what you are talkng about. Regarding free will, a person cannot be found guilty of committing a crime with the absence of "intent." I do not have a crystal ball into the mind of Denis Rader nor training in psychiatry, however, I am merely acknowledging that some people commit heinous crimes purely as an act of free will and not because they are not capable of making the choice not to do so.
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soda_farl
New Member

43 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2005 :  19:38:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send soda_farl a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dry_vby

Rader is a vile creature and to say that all he has to do is accept Jesus as his lord and saviour and he will be forgiven is a complete abomination to me.

The fact that he is a christian did not stop him from committing any of his heinous acts but instead is used as justification by him, shows the paucity of your peurile beleifs.

I can not accept a religion that condones this monsters abhorrent behavour in any way, free will or no free will.



Listen, anybody can call themselves a Christian. As a matter of fact a hallmark of sociopaths is that they are very skilled at blending into society by mimicing normal behavior. That is why they are so hard to apprehend. I can assure you that Denis Rader was not a Christian in any sense of the word.
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Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend

Australia
249 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2005 :  19:42:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dry_vby a Private Message
Apparently, he is using the excuse that "the devil made me do it."

An excuse provided by your religion.

And on top of that he then goes on to say that no matter what he has done your God will accept him.

Where was your god when that little girl was hanging by her neck with her toes barely toughing the ground while he watched on masturbating?

Where was her free will?

If being a christian could not influence this maniac to accept that these acts are beyond any acceptable standard, then what good is your god?

"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."

Bob Dylan
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