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Originally posted by Dry_vby

Apparently, he is using the excuse that "the devil made me do it."

An excuse provided by your religion.

And on top of that he then goes on to say that no matter what he has done your God will accept him.

Where was your god when that little girl was hanging by her neck with her toes barely toughing the ground while he watched on masturbating?

Where was her free will?

If being a christian could not influence this maniac to accept that these acts are beyond any acceptable standard, then what good is your god?

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Originally posted by soda_farl

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Originally posted by Cuneiformist

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Originally posted by soda_farl
Maybe you are being facetious, but personal redemption is the value of religion. His actions were the result of an abondonment of religious values and in no way reflective of the teachings of Christ. Having said that, nobody is beyond redemption if he/she sincerely repents his/her evil acts and becomes receptive to God's grace. Since time immemorial people have exploited religion just as they will exploit anything for pecuniary gain, self- aggrandizement or to maintain the status quo, but that does not mean that whatever insidious acts the barbarians at the gate commit defines religious values.

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Hi, soda, and welcome to SFN. I have a point of contention with your argument that "his actions were the result of an abondonment of religious values." This isn't entirely true. While one could convincingly argue that "religious values" as is generally held in Western society does not endorse, say, killing, torture and so on, it's difficult to argue that "abandoning" those values means that killing, torture, and so on are fair game. As an example, I'll cite myself. I have no religion and yet I do not kill or torture. Thus, my completely non-religious values acheive the same as your religious ones. (Except I don't go to church, beg pray to invisible gods, and so on.)

So what we can say is that this guy's killing and torture wasn't so much an abandonment of religious values as it was an adoption of some very anti-Western, anti-society values.

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To deny that western values are in part based upon Judeo-Christian values is to turn a blind eye to history. I matain that historically, the perversion of Judeo-Christian values is responsible for killing, both on a personal level and on a grander scale such as state sponsored genocide such as we have witnessed in Central America, Iraq and Hiroshima to note just a few examples.

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Originally posted by soda_farl
I shall once again explain what I meant. Denis Rader can say he is a Christian until he is blue in the face, but his actions indicated that he was the antithesis of what a Christian is. Have you ever explored the possibility that labels mean nothing, but actions are everything?

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How this fallacy can be used is perhaps easier to see in this example from Anthony Flew's book Thinking about Thinking — or do I sincerely want to be right?:

Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Press and Journal and seeing an article about how the ‘Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again'. Hamish is shocked and declares that “No Scotsman would do such a thing”. The next day he sits down to read his Press and Journal again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, “No true Scotsman would do such a thing”.

You can change this to any other bad act and any group you like to get a similar argument — and you'll get an argument which has probably been used at some point. A common one which is often heard when a religion or religious group is criticized is:

"Our religion teaches people to be kind and peaceful and loving. Anyone who does evil acts certainly isn't acting in a loving manner, therefore they can't really be a true member of our religion, no matter what they say."

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Originally posted by Cuneiformist

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Originally posted by soda_farl

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Originally posted by Cuneiformist

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Originally posted by soda_farl
Maybe you are being facetious, but personal redemption is the value of religion. His actions were the result of an abondonment of religious values and in no way reflective of the teachings of Christ. Having said that, nobody is beyond redemption if he/she sincerely repents his/her evil acts and becomes receptive to God's grace. Since time immemorial people have exploited religion just as they will exploit anything for pecuniary gain, self- aggrandizement or to maintain the status quo, but that does not mean that whatever insidious acts the barbarians at the gate commit defines religious values.

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Hi, soda, and welcome to SFN. I have a point of contention with your argument that "his actions were the result of an abondonment of religious values." This isn't entirely true. While one could convincingly argue that "religious values" as is generally held in Western society does not endorse, say, killing, torture and so on, it's difficult to argue that "abandoning" those values means that killing, torture, and so on are fair game. As an example, I'll cite myself. I have no religion and yet I do not kill or torture. Thus, my completely non-religious values acheive the same as your religious ones. (Except I don't go to church, beg pray to invisible gods, and so on.)

So what we can say is that this guy's killing and torture wasn't so much an abandonment of religious values as it was an adoption of some very anti-Western, anti-society values.

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To deny that western values are in part based upon Judeo-Christian values is to turn a blind eye to history. I matain that historically, the perversion of Judeo-Christian values is responsible for killing, both on a personal level and on a grander scale such as state sponsored genocide such as we have witnessed in Central America, Iraq and Hiroshima to note just a few examples.

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Well, if we're going to play that game, to deny that Judeo-Christian values are based on pre-Judeo-Christian values is to, well, be a typical Judeo-Christian apologist. As for what the "perversion" of such values are responsible for, well that would take an encyclopedia. But part of that depends on the perspective of the compiler. One person's "perversion" is another meglomaniac's "true vision," no?

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Originally posted by Dry_vby

Are you being willfully ignorant or just plain thick.

God be with you, too.

He is not the only one to hide behind religion, just the latest in a long line.

Religion=death.

Shouldn't you be somewhere hitting people over the head with your crucifix?

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Originally posted by Dry_vby

But, more than that, he doesn't even have to be a christian.

All he has to do is say that he accepts Jesus as he's lord and savior and Jesus will forgive him.

What a nice Jesus.

Jesus, (and you) can forgive him all you want.

Now, answer my question: "Where was your God while he watched that little girl die as slowly as possible for his own sexual gratification".

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Originally posted by soda_farl...
Listen, anybody can call themselves a Christian. As a matter of fact a hallmark of sociopaths is that they are very skilled at blending into society by mimicing normal behavior. That is why they are so hard to apprehend. I can assure you that Denis Rader was not a Christian in any sense of the word.

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Originally posted by GeeMack

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Originally posted by soda_farl...
Listen, anybody can call themselves a Christian. As a matter of fact a hallmark of sociopaths is that they are very skilled at blending into society by mimicing normal behavior. That is why they are so hard to apprehend. I can assure you that Denis Rader was not a Christian in any sense of the word.

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It's not up to you to decide what religion other people are. That choice can only be made by individuals for themselves. Adolph Hitler was a Christian. George W. Bush is a Christian. Dennis Rader is a Christian.

Christians murdered "witches" by burning them alive. Christians advocate stifling the intellectual progress of school children. Christians conspire to murder employees at abortion clinics. Christians support prohibitions that harm more people than they help. Christians do a lot of terrible, socially destructive things.

If you're not comfortable with that you do have several choices. You can stop being a Christian (the sane, intelligent choice). You can be an ostrich, put your head in a hole, and ignore all the terrible things that are done by Christians and/or in the name of advancing the cause of Christianity. You can learn to get over it, deal with it, maybe get some counseling so you can accept it with comfort. But you cannot disavow another person's religion. That's not your option.

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Originally posted by Dry_vby

Opposable digit.

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Originally posted by soda_farl

...a person cannot be found guilty of committing a crime with the absence of "intent."

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Originally posted by Dry_vby

Because I don't care what you think.

Um.....in case you didn't realise, that first line was a copy of one your lines, hypocrit.

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