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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 08/18/2005 : 20:43:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
I don't think we should confuse healthy sexuality which does not preclude the healthy bonding between males and females with the outright exploitation of people.
And I don't think you should confuse your sunday school teacher's opinions on the matter with what is healthy sexuality.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 20:45:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
I can appreciate the validity of your statement that some Judeo-Christian values are based upon pre-Judeo-Christian values, however, I do not believe that one person's "perversion" is another meglomaniac's true vision because, call me old fashioned, but I do believe in moral absolutes. If by happy coincidence their modern day counterpart is a refinement of pre-judeo-christian values, then I have no problem with that. I would like to clarify that I find it odd that people on one hand that have no objections to taking direction from the state, (paying taxes) (not littering) (being drafted, etc.,) are so outraged by religous values and ethics that nobody is forced to observe.
Sure-- religious people have "moral absolutes." But so did, not doubt, David Koresh.
The problem is, no one goes around thinking "I've preverted Christianity". They just think that they're interpreting it properly, while you aren't. And unfortunately for you, the best you can say is that no, in fact, your veiw of Christianity is the right one, and Koresh's, or Hitler's, or Bush's, or anyone else's view is wrong. And you can claim "moral absolutes" but so can Jerry Falwell, or Hank Hanegraff, or Bob Jones.
This, I think, is how wars get started. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 20:47:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
I would like to clarify that I find it odd that people on one hand that have no objections to taking direction from the state, (paying taxes) (not littering) (being drafted, etc.,) are so outraged by religous values and ethics that nobody is forced to observe.
What? How is "believe in God or go to Hell" not an attempt to force someone to observe that belief? It is a threat, pure and simple. The Christian God is, in no uncertain terms, a bully. And "free will" is simply teasing, by in effect saying, "you can choose to do as you want, but if you don't do what I want you to do, you'll be punished." That's coersion, not freedom.
Beyond that, in the United States of America, the state is the people. By paying taxes, not littering, or agreeing to a draft, a citizen is saying, "yes, we follow these rules for the sake of our society as a whole." Citizens have a compact with the state (themselves), wherein the citizen agrees to certain rules, and the state agrees to keep its hands off everything else. The citizenry and the state can also change the rules through mutual agreement.
There is no such deal with God. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 20:47:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
What a bunch of bollix. I can call myself a Muslim but if I do not practice it, I am not a Muslim. It's really quite a simple concept to grasp if you don't have a hidden agenda such as religous bigotry.
But Rader was a practicing Christian. Quite involved with his local church, actually. He even took one of his dead victims into the church basement so he could pose the body for pictures. He was entrusted with keys to the place, you see.
Tell me, soda farl, why haven't you responded to the post where I pointed out to you that you were guilty of commiting a logical fallacy? And why have you repeated it?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/18/2005 20:48:31 |
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soda_farl
New Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 20:47:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
...a person cannot be found guilty of committing a crime with the absence of "intent."
Time to let all those convicted of "involuntary manslaughter" out of jail, then. "I didn't know the gun was loaded" doesn't negate the crime.
And Rader, by saying that the Devil made him do it, is claiming that he had no intent to commit a crime. Should his sentence be nullified?
Excuse me, who gives a rat's arse if Rader claimed the devil made him do it? Just how gullible are you people? There is a huge difference between a conviction of manslaughter, which is meted out because of a person's negligence based arising out of passion or recklessness that results in homicide that of a premeditated murder. There is no question about Rader's intent to harm others. It was well thought out, and there were absolutely no mitigating circumstances for his monstrous acts, thus he has to be held to a higher level of accountability. |
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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend
313 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 20:50:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
What a bunch of bollix. I can call myself a Muslim but if I do not practice it, I am not a Muslim.
So Rader is a Chirstian then:
quote:
At the time of his arrest, Rader was married and the lay president of the congregation at Wichita's Christ Lutheran Church where he was a regular Sunday worshipper.
I post too slow ... |
| Edited by - woolytoad on 08/18/2005 20:54:36 |
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Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend
Australia
249 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 20:50:59 [Permalink]
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| At least I've got my marbles, hypocrit. |
"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."
Bob Dylan
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soda_farl
New Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 20:53:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
What a bunch of bollix. I can call myself a Muslim but if I do not practice it, I am not a Muslim. It's really quite a simple concept to grasp if you don't have a hidden agenda such as religous bigotry.
But Rader was a practicing Christian. Quite involved with his local church, actually. He even took one of his dead victims into the church basement so he could pose the body for pictures. He was entrusted with keys to the place, you see.
Tell me, soda farl, why haven't you responded to the post where I pointed out to you that you were guilty of commiting a logical fallacy? And why have you repeated it?
No slight was intended, I'm just having trouble dodging all the barbs being launched at me, and keeping up with the pace of the discussion. |
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soda_farl
New Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 20:55:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
I don't think we should confuse healthy sexuality which does not preclude the healthy bonding between males and females with the outright exploitation of people.
And I don't think you should confuse your sunday school teacher's opinions on the matter with what is healthy sexuality.
Okay, you tell me if what your understanding of healthy sexuality is and whether it involves treating women with respect. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 20:57:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dry_vby
At least I've got my marbles, hypocrit.
Excellent retort, actually... |
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soda_farl
New Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 20:57:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
What a bunch of bollix. I can call myself a Muslim but if I do not practice it, I am not a Muslim. It's really quite a simple concept to grasp if you don't have a hidden agenda such as religous bigotry.
But Rader was a practicing Christian. Quite involved with his local church, actually. He even took one of his dead victims into the church basement so he could pose the body for pictures. He was entrusted with keys to the place, you see.
Tell me, soda farl, why haven't you responded to the post where I pointed out to you that you were guilty of commiting a logical fallacy? And why have you repeated it?
Evidentally, he wasn't a practicing Christian or he wouldn't be murdering people. He was posing as a Christian. It's not the first time a person has lead a double life and it won't be the last time a person does so. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:03:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
Evidentally, he wasn't a practicing Christian or he wouldn't be murdering people. He was posing as a Christian. It's not the first time a person has lead a double life and it won't be the last time a person does so.
Bzzzt. Wrong answer.
Essentially, you're defining a "true" Christian as someone incapable of acting badly, despite the evidence that Christians do bad things all the time. This is a form of denial and is a logically fallacy. Please Google the "No True Scotsman" fallacy or actually go back and read my post on the subject.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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soda_farl
New Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:05:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
I would like to clarify that I find it odd that people on one hand that have no objections to taking direction from the state, (paying taxes) (not littering) (being drafted, etc.,) are so outraged by religous values and ethics that nobody is forced to observe.
What? How is "believe in God or go to Hell" not an attempt to force someone to observe that belief? It is a threat, pure and simple. The Christian God is, in no uncertain terms, a bully. And "free will" is simply teasing, by in effect saying, "you can choose to do as you want, but if you don't do what I want you to do, you'll be punished." That's coersion, not freedom.
Beyond that, in the United States of America, the state is the people. By paying taxes, not littering, or agreeing to a draft, a citizen is saying, "yes, we follow these rules for the sake of our society as a whole." Citizens have a compact with the state (themselves), wherein the citizen agrees to certain rules, and the state agrees to keep its hands off everything else. The citizenry and the state can also change the rules through mutual agreement.
There is no such deal with God.
Well, if you don't believe in God why are you so threatened by God? The results of disobeying man made laws are tangible. You go to jail. And let's cut to the chase and admit straight out that as a citizen your influence on laws is negligible and overwhelmingly takes a back seat to corporate interests and cashed up lobbyists. The fact remains that you are an adult totally free to make up your own mind about whether or not you chose to observe a religion. Nobody is putting a gun to your head. |
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soda_farl
New Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:07:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dry_vby
At least I've got my marbles, hypocrit.
If you are going to insult me at least do so with a modicum of style and spell hypocrit correctly. Your insult would have far more sting to it. Just trying to help you accomplish your goal :) |
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Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend
Australia
249 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:15:45 [Permalink]
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I am not calling you a hypocrit to insult you, I am calling you a hypocrit because you are a hypocrit.
What good is your God? |
"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."
Bob Dylan
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