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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:19:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl...
What a bunch of bollix. I can call myself a Muslim but if I do not practice it, I am not a Muslim. It's really quite a simple concept to grasp if you don't have a hidden agenda such as religous bigotry. If you can not deal with the fact that there are people in the world who misrepresent themselves, then I shudder at what predicaments you are likely to get yourself into. Get some street smarts.
Since you're new at posting here there's a good possibility you don't know much about some of us. Just a little background to put this in perspective: I am nearly 50 years old and have literally lived on the streets for a short period of my life. I am, among other things, a professional magician. I've studied the arts and sciences of deception since I was in grade school. I am not a con man, but I would be very successful at it if I chose that as a vocation. I have in depth knowledge of some of the most sophisticated cons and cheating schemes ever devised. My street smarts aren't in question. The likelihood that I'll get in any predicaments because of some naivety about people misrepresenting themselves is pretty close to zero.
You seem to think it's up to you to determine other people's religions. It's not. It's up to each individual. People may or may not practice their religions in ways that you approve of, but those choices are up to them. I could say that you aren't a Christian because clearly you believe it is up to you to judge which religion other people belong to, or whether they are appropriately practicing their religions. I could say that since Christians don't judge others, you aren't a Christian. I won't say that, though, for two reasons. First, it isn't up to me to decide what religion you belong to. And second, as un-Christian as you appear in your judgment of other people's spirituality, the hypocrisy in your judgmentalism does seem to be a pretty prevalent Christian trait.
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soda_farl
New Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:21:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
Evidentally, he wasn't a practicing Christian or he wouldn't be murdering people. He was posing as a Christian. It's not the first time a person has lead a double life and it won't be the last time a person does so.
Bzzzt. Wrong answer.
Essentially, you're defining a "true" Christian as someone incapable of acting badly, despite the evidence that Christians do bad things all the time. This is a form of denial and is a logically fallacy. Please Google the "No True Scotsman" fallacy or actually go back and read my post on the subject.
No, your assessment of how I define a Christian is false. I make the distinction between a person giving lip service to being a Christian yet not living as a Christian as opposed to somebody who actually internalizes Christian beliefs and whose life is governed by same. There is a hymn that sums it up nicely. "They will know we are Christians by our love." |
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soda_farl
New Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:23:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dry_vby
I am not calling you a hypocrit to insult you, I am calling you a hypocrit because you are a hypocrit.
What good is your God?
You don't know me from Adam so please spare me your histrionics. |
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Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend
Australia
249 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:25:10 [Permalink]
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There is a hymn that sums it up nicely. "They will know we are Christians by our love."
[/quote]
Oh, we're talking about alter boys now.
Please stop telling me how I should post.
What good is your God? |
"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."
Bob Dylan
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:31:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
Well, if you don't believe in God why are you so threatened by God?
I'm not. I am threatened - on a regular basis (not just a feeling of being threatened, but actually threatened) - by people who believe in God. They are the ones who tell me that God is a big bully in the sky, and if I don't do what they say their God says I should do, I'll be cooked. The problem is, being human beings, they may forget their God's Commandments, and do me harm for no other reason than that I don't believe as they do.quote:
The results of disobeying man made laws are tangible. You go to jail.
Right. Your point?quote:
And let's cut to the chase and admit straight out that as a citizen your influence on laws is negligible and overwhelmingly takes a back seat to corporate interests and cashed up lobbyists.
All acts of citizens of this country. Your attempts to separate the government from the people simply don't fly - they are one and the same. After all, you don't know that I'm not a cashed-up lobbyist and/or a corporate director. That, plus the fact that every lobbyist or corporation wasn't one, at some point in time, shows that citizens can, in fact, have massive influence on the law.quote:
The fact remains that you are an adult totally free to make up your own mind about whether or not you chose to observe a religion. Nobody is putting a gun to your head.
Perhaps you're not aware of groups like the Christian Reconstructionists, who'd like to see the US Constitution replaced by the Bible. I'm sure you'll dismiss them as fanatics, but every religion has its fanatics, and one ignores them at one's peril. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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soda_farl
New Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:34:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl...
What a bunch of bollix. I can call myself a Muslim but if I do not practice it, I am not a Muslim. It's really quite a simple concept to grasp if you don't have a hidden agenda such as religous bigotry. If you can not deal with the fact that there are people in the world who misrepresent themselves, then I shudder at what predicaments you are likely to get yourself into. Get some street smarts.
Since you're new at posting here there's a good possibility you don't know much about some of us. Just a little background to put this in perspective: I am nearly 50 years old and have literally lived on the streets for a short period of my life. I am, among other things, a professional magician. I've studied the arts and sciences of deception since I was in grade school. I am not a con man, but I would be very successful at it if I chose that as a vocation. I have in depth knowledge of some of the most sophisticated cons and cheating schemes ever devised. My street smarts aren't in question. The likelihood that I'll get in any predicaments because of some naivety about people misrepresenting themselves is pretty close to zero.
You seem to think it's up to you to determine other people's religions. It's not. It's up to each individual. People may or may not practice their religions in ways that you approve of, but those choices are up to them. I could say that you aren't a Christian because clearly you believe it is up to you to judge which religion other people belong to, or whether they are appropriately practicing their religions. I could say that since Christians don't judge others, you aren't a Christian. I won't say that, though, for two reasons. First, it isn't up to me to decide what religion you belong to. And second, as un-Christian as you appear in your judgment of other people's spirituality, the hypocrisy in your judgmentalism does seem to be a pretty prevalent Christian trait.
I don't recollect telling anybody here what religion if any to practice. I am merely expressing my beliefs. If anything I have emphasized free will. Since, I am slightly out-numbered here, I find it highly amusing that you think this army of little old me is trying to exert control over anybody. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:34:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
No, your assessment of how I define a Christian is false. I make the distinction between a person giving lip service to being a Christian yet not living as a Christian as opposed to somebody who actually internalizes Christian beliefs and whose life is governed by same.
So you are saying Christians cannot do bad things. Perhaps you can point out how my assessment differs from what you are saying. I fail to see any.
Can a Christian act wrongly and still remain a Christian? You are saying no. The facts would state otherwise. You can't pretend to know what's in people hearts--whether or not they "internalize Christian beliefs"--so you must be judging people by their actions alone. According to your faulty logic, any Christian who acts badly automatically loses their Christian status. I assume they can regain if they truly repent, then lose it if they act badly again, then regain it if they repent again, then lose it again, then regain it, ad infinitum.
It is clear that you are playing fast and loose with the definition of Christian simply because you are made so uncomfortable by what your fellow "brothers in Christ" actually do. As others in this thread have pointed out, you need to deal with it. Pretending people aren't what say they are and practice for 40 odd years is a transparent ruse and doesn't wash.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/18/2005 21:36:50 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:38:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
Excuse me, who gives a rat's arse if Rader claimed the devil made him do it? Just how gullible are you people? There is a huge difference between a conviction of manslaughter, which is meted out because of a person's negligence based arising out of passion or recklessness that results in homicide that of a premeditated murder.
Apparently, you don't get that the denial of intent is the disproof of your claim that intent is required for a commission (and conviction) of a crime.quote:
There is no question about Rader's intent to harm others. It was well thought out, and there were absolutely no mitigating circumstances for his monstrous acts, thus he has to be held to a higher level of accountability.
And if he claims that he was not in control, that a supernatural being was forcing him to do those things, then there was no intent on Rader's part. You seem - with your "gullible" comment, above - to want to deny that this is possible, while at the same time arguing that the Christian God exists. Well, how gullible are you? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:52:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
No, your assessment of how I define a Christian is false. I make the distinction between a person giving lip service to being a Christian yet not living as a Christian as opposed to somebody who actually internalizes Christian beliefs and whose life is governed by same. There is a hymn that sums it up nicely. "They will know we are Christians by our love."
And yet, the Bible teaches that all mortals are sinners, and only God can judge them properly. If you believe in the Christian God, then the idea that you, a mere mortal, can tell a Christian from a non-Christian simply by the way or amount that they sin is ridiculous. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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soda_farl
New Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:54:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
Excuse me, who gives a rat's arse if Rader claimed the devil made him do it? Just how gullible are you people? There is a huge difference between a conviction of manslaughter, which is meted out because of a person's negligence based arising out of passion or recklessness that results in homicide that of a premeditated murder.
Apparently, you don't get that the denial of intent is the disproof of your claim that intent is required for a commission (and conviction) of a crime.quote:
There is no question about Rader's intent to harm others. It was well thought out, and there were absolutely no mitigating circumstances for his monstrous acts, thus he has to be held to a higher level of accountability.
And if he claims that he was not in control, that a supernatural being was forcing him to do those things, then there was no intent on Rader's part. You seem - with your "gullible" comment, above - to want to deny that this is possible, while at the same time arguing that the Christian God exists. Well, how gullible are you?
Excuse me what Christmas tree did you fall off of? It is the burden of the state to prove that Rader acted with intent to kill, and it is up to the jury a/k/a the trier of the facts to decide whether the state has met it's burden. Do you really think that Rader's claim that the devil made him do it would sway a jury? I don't even know for sure if he even testified at trial, but no competent lawyer would have let him take the stand. So, I really don't see a connection with Rader's post conviction rant about the devil making him do it as proof that he didn't have intent. |
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soda_farl
New Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:55:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dry_vby
There is a hymn that sums it up nicely. "They will know we are Christians by our love."
Oh, we're talking about alter boys now.
Please stop telling me how I should post.
What good is your God?
[/quote]
You are dismissed.
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Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend
Australia
249 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:57:58 [Permalink]
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The question of intent is not important to me.
He used a christian construct te explain and excuse his actions and a christian construct to gain the trust of some of his victims.
Why do so many criminals hide behind God?
What good is your god? |
"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."
Bob Dylan
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Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend
Australia
249 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:59:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
[quote]Originally posted by Dry_vby
There is a hymn that sums it up nicely. "They will know we are Christians by our love."
Oh, we're talking about alter boys now.
Please stop telling me how I should post.
What good is your God?
You are dismissed.
Who are you, God?
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"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."
Bob Dylan
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 22:07:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
Excuse me what Christmas tree did you fall off of?
Apparently, despite your protestations about ad hominem attacks, they are not beneath you.quote:
It is the burden of the state to prove that Rader acted with intent to kill, and it is up to the jury a/k/a the trier of the facts to decide whether the state has met it's burden. Do you really think that Rader's claim that the devil made him do it would sway a jury? I don't even know for sure if he even testified at trial, but no competent lawyer would have let him take the stand. So, I really don't see a connection with Rader's post conviction rant about the devil making him do it as proof that he didn't have intent.
It is amazing to me that in a discussion in which you, I believe, brought up "free will" in a Biblical sense, that you throw yourself upon the mercy of a secular court and jury at the first opportunity.
If Satan was forcing Rader to do the things he did, did he have free will? If some minor demon was sitting on Rader's shoulder and twisting his ear everytime he tried to avoid doing horrible things, did Rader have an intent to kill? If these things were happening, did the devil's influence strip Rader of his professed Christianity?
Okay, strike the Satan part, since he is allegedly just a tempter. But the Bible does mention cases of demonic possession. The jury couldn't find Rader innocent on those grounds - but what if it were the case? Has an innocent man been convicted of something done against his own volition? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 22:08:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl...
I don't recollect telling anybody here what religion if any to practice. I am merely expressing my beliefs. If anything I have emphasized free will. Since, I am slightly out-numbered here, I find it highly amusing that you think this army of little old me is trying to exert control over anybody.
Apparently you've misunderstood my comments. I didn't suggest that you were telling anyone what religion to practice, nor did I suggest that you were attempting to exert any control. What you have done, several times now, is to claim that you know better than Dennis Rader which religion he does or does not belong to. It's not up to you to decide that certain people aren't really members of a particular religion. People can only select entry into or exit from a particular religion for themselves.
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