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 Bush: Intelligent design should be taught
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gezzam
SFN Regular

Australia
751 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2005 :  21:28:16  Show Profile  Visit gezzam's Homepage Send gezzam a Private Message
Well, not only does doofus try to wreck the U.N. It looks like he is trying to weigh in on the Intelligent Design debacle....

This one should keep the (RR) base happy....

Bush: Intelligent design should be taught

Idiot......................


Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.

Al Franken

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2005 :  23:19:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
I'm not surprised Bush thinks this, but I am surprised that he opened his mouth about it.

Over in this Panda's Thumb thread, a poster by the name of Mike Walker makes an interesting point:
quote:
Well, many on the left believe that where James Dobson leads, so goes President Bush (Terry Shiavo, Supreme Court Justices, abortion, gay marriage, etc, etc.)

It's probably a coincidence, but Dobson's “Focus of the Family” is doing a two-parter (today and tomorrow) on Intelligent Design with none other than Stephen Meyer and John West from the Discovery Institute.

"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2005 :  02:00:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
There is a certain, Nixonian cunning to Bush. Here, he and I might agree as long as the guidelines stick with 'discuss' and not 'teach.'

quote:
WASHINGTON -- President Bush said Monday he believes schools should discuss "intelligent design" alongside evolution when teaching students about the creation of life.


What is there to teach, anyway? An unsupported and unsupportable conjecture, no more, and I'd hate like hell to have to write a lesson plan for that. And thus, the Bible would have to come into science class, which has been the goal of the whole exercise from the start.

But discuss it? Sure, why not if time permits? That might help prepare at least a few students to think critically as they learn the definition of science, and might help unbrainwash some few others.

Let's face it, friends; ID, as fatious as it is, exists. It will not go away by ignoring it. So bring it out into the harsh light of reality and dismember the fucker into bloody chunks for all to see.

I further note the word, 'creation, and not 'evolution.' Again, clever. As abiogenesis has not yet been established as fact (give it time), they are on safe, they think, ground in that they can give an argument from incredualty in support of the supernatural. And any high school science teacher worth his/her paycheck can shoot that bird down like a mallard hit with a 10 gauge goose load.

The RR might learn to be careful what they wish for.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2005 :  02:05:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Let's face it, friends; ID, as fatious as it is, exists. It will not go away by ignoring it. So bring it out into the harsh light of reality and dismember the fucker into bloody chunks for all to see.
I agree with the sentiment, but I don't believe schools are the correct place to be having the public "discussion."


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2005 :  07:52:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Let's face it, friends; ID, as fatious as it is, exists. It will not go away by ignoring it. So bring it out into the harsh light of reality and dismember the fucker into bloody chunks for all to see.
I agree with the sentiment, but I don't believe schools are the correct place to be having the public "discussion."



Ummm, I am not so sure.

Again, let's face it: either side has yet to convince anyone in the other camp in the "public discussion," one way or anther. To my knowledge, not one. Nor will they ever do so, as far as I can see. Would it not be better to lay out the facts where they would be taken note of rather than waste time on garbage such as the recent and on-going Kansas Klown Show, where the creationists didn't even bother to read the minority's fucking papers? ID blatherers are here to stay, in one insidious form or another. I'd like to see them hit where it hurts even more than a kick in the balls; in minds of the students that they so strongly desire to indoctrinate into their drive to theocratcy.

Were I a science teacher, I'd discucss it in a heartbeat! I might even give out an optional, extra credit assignment on it. But I would discuss, not teach the so-called "controversy" (there is no controversy; only fact leading to theory, vs. utter crap). And it is a damned-sure bet that my students would come away knowing exactly what a scientific theory is and is not.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 08/02/2005 08:00:08
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2005 :  08:08:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

Were I a science teacher, I'd discucss it in a heartbeat! I might even give out an optional, extra credit assignment on it.
Me to!
quote:
(there is no controversy; only fact leading to theory, vs. utter crap).
That is what I would teach about the controversy.

"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2005 :  08:41:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
By not discussing ID, a student could come away with the impression that there is something to hide, which their local church/pastor would take and run with.

I agree: bring it out in the open and have at it...

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2005 :  09:31:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message
I'm not really against some discussion of intelligent design taking place in schools. I'm sure that is already discussed as the situation warrants in most science classrooms. But I am against adding a discussion of intelligent design to the school curriculum.

Let's not forget that schools are primarily places for children to learn and not forums for open debate.

I'm not so sure that ID would nessecarily come of as badly as we think it would. Consider the audience. Highschoolers are not generally known for their critical thinking skills.

Also wouldn't this open the door for proponants of ID to complain that ID is not being fairly taught because it is being taught by those with an "evolutionary" agenda. Maybe the next step would be to hire teachers from ID appoved universities to "discuss" ID.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2005 :  10:00:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
Ah, maybe you guys are right. It's just that most kids don't even come out of high school with a firm grasp of evolution itself. I'm not sure they'd be able to absorb why other "theories" fail. But maybe if a teacher could at least hammer home the point that Creationism and ID are deeply flawed and roundly rejected by scientists, it might act as a buffer if they're exposed to them later in life.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/02/2005 10:01:37
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2005 :  10:40:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
I agree with Craig Winn on this issue
quote:
Yahweh's revelation of our beginning was given to man four thousand years ago. There were no scientists or even a word for “science.” The language of astronomical creation, calculus, wouldn't be invented for four millennia. The language of life, DNA, was a concept well beyond this time. I say this to reveal something that should be obvious. The Genesis creation story was not intended to be a scientific explanation of how God made the universe. It was a spiritual explanation of why he created it. The explanation of how was scores of centuries beyond the language of the time. And it was unimportant. Those who want the Biblical account taught in schools as if it were scientific are doing a great disservice.
I think children should be told that some people beleive that there is a creator and reject that life happened on its own and leave it at that.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2005 :  11:47:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
The Genesis creation story was not intended to be a scientific explanation of how God made the universe. It was a spiritual explanation of why he created it.


Fails on both accounts.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2005 :  13:05:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Ah, maybe you guys are right. It's just that most kids don't even come out of high school with a firm grasp of evolution itself. I'm not sure they'd be able to absorb why other "theories" fail. But maybe if a teacher could at least hammer home the point that Creationism and ID are deeply flawed and roundly rejected by scientists, it might act as a buffer if they're exposed to them later in life.



Yes, exactly.

But of course, the rat turd in that bowl of soup is the teachers themselves. I am reminded that Kent Hovind taught high school science for some 15 years :shudder:. I think that teachers qualification standards should be higher in all subjects.

These kids are, at least for the most part, not stupid. It is true that their thought process' are not at the same level as adult's (depending upon the adult in the comparison ), but they are not all that far behind. They are perfectly capable of using logic to sort out contradictions if given sufficent information. Give them excellent teachers, you will end up with a good percentage of excellent students.

I do not know the facts of this, but I have read that at grammar and highschool levels, we are far behind Europe and elsewhere in our academic standards. Oddly, or perhaps not, it shows up in here now and again, in the atrocious grammer and structure in the writings by some posters claiming to be students.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2005 :  13:35:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
These kids are, at least for the most part, not stupid. It is true that their thought process' are not at the same level as adult's (depending upon the adult in the comparison ), but they are not all that far behind. They are perfectly capable of using logic to sort out contradictions if given sufficent information. Give them excellent teachers, you will end up with a good percentage of excellent students.


I think first kids must be taught why the should care. Only then will their level of intelligence be a factor. But as long as they don't, even if they have potential it will not matter.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2005 :  16:07:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message
Intelligient design should be taught in schools. The same way perpetual motion machines are.

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Randy
SFN Regular

USA
1990 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2005 :  16:16:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Randy a Private Message
Bush is having his own version of the Quayle/potato-e debacle.

"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."

"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson
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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend

313 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2005 :  17:14:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send woolytoad a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Ah, maybe you guys are right. It's just that most kids don't even come out of high school with a firm grasp of evolution itself. I'm not sure they'd be able to absorb why other "theories" fail. But maybe if a teacher could at least hammer home the point that Creationism and ID are deeply flawed and roundly rejected by scientists, it might act as a buffer if they're exposed to them later in life.



Yes, exactly.

But of course, the rat turd in that bowl of soup is the teachers themselves. I am reminded that Kent Hovind taught high school science for some 15 years :shudder:. I think that teachers qualification standards should be higher in all subjects.

These kids are, at least for the most part, not stupid. It is true that their thought process' are not at the same level as adult's (depending upon the adult in the comparison ), but they are not all that far behind. They are perfectly capable of using logic to sort out contradictions if given sufficent information. Give them excellent teachers, you will end up with a good percentage of excellent students.

I do not know the facts of this, but I have read that at grammar and highschool levels, we are far behind Europe and elsewhere in our academic standards. Oddly, or perhaps not, it shows up in here now and again, in the atrocious grammer and structure in the writings by some posters claiming to be students.





Sooo ... who's going to pay for better teachers?
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