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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2005 :  06:43:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by courageouslion

Well Price Valiant Dancer...I must say, you are such a skeptic! I should be such a skeptic. IF you spend an hour of your precious life watching Loose Change and still come to the conclusions you do...fine.


Do nothing which has no value -- Miomato Musashi

quote:

As it stands you are not dealing with the questions. You are skirting them. You never challenge the fact that Larry Silverstein on a CNN interview said he PULLED building 7.



And what, presicely, does "pulled" mean in that context. Conspiracy theorists could say he ordered it's destruction. Others may say he meant pulled as in retract fire fighting efforts in order to evacuate or save other buildings. The quote is at the very least out of context. I can find no mention of it anywhere I've looked. Do you have an independant source with which I could verify it and the context in which it sits?

quote:

You are not challenging my points about the wheel hub size, the rotor size, the fact that the 6 ton engines are missing. You simply spout the common view foisted by paid government stooges as fact.



Because you didn't bother providing evince of any sort for your claims. It is not my job to prove or disprove your assertions. The only pictures I have seen of a hub of any size was of the turbojet fan hub. Also, I have seen evidence of the engines. Engines come apart on impact with steel reinforced concrete.

quote:

Fine! Good for you! Your gooberment would NEVER do anything bad against us! HAAAA...Read the Northwoods Document. Heard of WACO? Ruby Ridge? The Gulf of Tonkin "incident"? The LIES to get us into "war" with Iraq? I'm feeling ill...


Rash generalization. Now you use the old and tired prejudgical language fallacy to paint disagreement with you as gullibility.

1) The facts in evidence in the past two threads linked to on this board soundly refute the conspiracy drivel you are putting out.
2) The government has done some pretty questionable things in the past. Will do so in the future. 9/11 wasn't one of them.

quote:

And as for the so called PANCAKE theory? Where was the delay caused by the floors hitting one another. The delay that had to be caused by the welds breaking at each juncture? Sure we don't know EXACTLY how long a building of that size would take to fall using the pancake THEORY, but we do know that they wouldn't fall at the speed of GRAVITY. Why did all the pieces fit nicely on flatbed semi trucks?


And what is the speed of gravity? There is no such animal. The towers fell in the manner gravity dictated. Please, for the love of the Goddess, read the structural engineer reports concerning floor failure in WTC North and South towers. Stuff falling from 80 floors tend to get screwed up on the way down. Also, men arrange things on semi trucks. Where is your evidence that the workers did not pre cut the sections before loading?

quote:

And by the way, the building wasn't "riveted" together. It was welded and bolted. After studying the design of the structure I came to the conclusion OUR government is full of a bunch of lying pieces of crap.
Well, actually I already knew that. It is just that NOW we REALLY have a bunch of murdering thieves running the show.

WE were attacked psychologically on that day and they have won...so far.



Again, the structural engineer report linked to shows why the floors failed. Welds crack under pressure when beams deform, bolts shear, floors snap off and pancake onto other stressed flooring which in turn gives way. The cascading failure of the entire building was horrible to watch, but not caused by explosives.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2005 :  07:24:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
C-Lion stated
quote:
As it stands you are not dealing with the questions. You are skirting them. You never challenge the fact that Larry Silverstein on a CNN interview said he PULLED building 7.


Actually it was a PBS documentary and he said:
quote:
"I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.'

What you stated is clearly a misrepresentation of what Silverstein said. He was not trying to hide anything, no big conspiracy, he was simply stating that the situation was so dire that 'pulling' the building may be what needed to be done. He NEVER said he 'pulled' the building. Your credibility is waining...


If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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markie
Skeptic Friend

Canada
356 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2005 :  08:17:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send markie a Private Message
Yeah it seems to me as well that Silverstein was honestly voicing his opinion that they should bring down building 7. Turns out he didn't have to.

It is just too strange that the only three modern steel framed buildings that have collapsed by fire were those three buildings on 9-11. If the pancake theory really holds water, demolitionists need only wire and explode a few floors near the upper stories of a tall steel building and let gravity do the rest. Right?

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9672 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2005 :  08:59:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by markie

Yeah it seems to me as well that Silverstein was honestly voicing his opinion that they should bring down building 7.
To me it looks more like he wanted to pull out the fire-workers, and abandon any attempt to save it. But that's just me, and I'm not an native English reader/speaker.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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ktesibios
SFN Regular

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2005 :  09:32:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ktesibios a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by courageouslion
You simply spout the common view foisted by paid government stooges as fact.

Fine! Good for you! Your gooberment would NEVER do anything bad against us! HAAAA...Read the Northwoods Document. Heard of WACO? Ruby Ridge? The Gulf of Tonkin "incident"? The LIES to get us into "war" with Iraq? I'm feeling ill...



And you simply spout the same old load of recycled fetid dingo's kidneys foisted by unqualified loons who make their living by peddling conspiracy theories. Pot, kettle, black.

As for your implication that we are mindlessly upholding whatever our Glorious Leaders tell us, I suggest that you spend a little time checking out the "Politics" section of this forum. Assuming that you have semi-decent reading skills, you'll notice that around here Bush supporters are about as common as legs on snakes. Of all the skeptic-oriented fora on the 'net, you've stumbled on the one where the population mean is probably the most left of center.

If there is anyone among our regulars whose loathing of BushCo and its policies exceeds my own, I'd like to hoist a few with them (and may the Flying Spaghetti Monster grant they be an unattached female). This has no more to do with my opinion of the causes of the WTC collapse or the damage to the Pentagon than it has to do with my opinion of the deficiencies of Studer's technical documentation. Contrary to the beliefs of conspiracists, creationists and Republicans, the workings of the physical universe are not determined or even influenced by ideology.

quote:

And as for the so called PANCAKE theory? Where was the delay caused by the floors hitting one another. The delay that had to be caused by the welds breaking at each juncture? Sure we don't know EXACTLY how long a building of that size would take to fall using the pancake THEORY, but we do know that they wouldn't fall at the speed of GRAVITY. Why did all the pieces fit nicely on flatbed semi trucks?

And by the way, the building wasn't "riveted" together. It was welded and bolted. After studying the design of the structure I came to the conclusion OUR government is full of a bunch of lying pieces of crap.



Have you actually read any of the technical reports on the WTC collapses, particularly the NIST report I linked to earlier in this thread? Did you notice what an assortment of expertise in widely varying scientific and engineering disciplines were involved in trying to produce a coherent, evidence-based understanding of what happened? Do you claim to possess expert knowledge in structural engineering, metallurgy, physics, fluid dynamics, fire protection engineering, FEA modeling and everything else which has gone into the study of these events?

What are your qualifications to render an expert opinion? Why exactly should anyone consider your conclusions as worth even a tinker's dam?

"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2005 :  12:17:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
quote:
It is just too strange that the only three modern steel framed buildings that have collapsed by fire were those three buildings on 9-11.

These were also the only building to be involved in having fully fueled jets flying at 500 mph crashing into them....



If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2005 :  12:27:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by markie

Yeah it seems to me as well that Silverstein was honestly voicing his opinion that they should bring down building 7. Turns out he didn't have to.

It is just too strange that the only three modern steel framed buildings that have collapsed by fire were those three buildings on 9-11. If the pancake theory really holds water, demolitionists need only wire and explode a few floors near the upper stories of a tall steel building and let gravity do the rest. Right?





More specifically, 10 floors from the top. You need sufficient weight to bring them down.

It's why demolition experts blow bottom floors out so that the weight of the building will destroy it.

And these are also the only three steel buildings which had aircraft fuel fires unfought and uncontained for hours before their collapse.

The major sticking point is the major damage to the fire fighting suppression equipment and untreated raging aircraft fuel fire which ignited office furniture.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9672 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2005 :  16:20:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

quote:
Originally posted by markie

Yeah it seems to me as well that Silverstein was honestly voicing his opinion that they should bring down building 7. Turns out he didn't have to.

It is just too strange that the only three modern steel framed buildings that have collapsed by fire were those three buildings on 9-11. If the pancake theory really holds water, demolitionists need only wire and explode a few floors near the upper stories of a tall steel building and let gravity do the rest. Right?





More specifically, 10 floors from the top. You need sufficient weight to bring them down.

It's why demolition experts blow bottom floors out so that the weight of the building will destroy it.

The closer to ground you blow the support, the less explosive needed.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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breakballs
Sockpuppet

53 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2005 :  23:38:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send breakballs a Private Message


quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

The closer to ground you blow the support, the less explosive needed.



Yes, the bigger plane you send against Pentagon, the faster it vanishes.


THE BEST HELICOPTER PILOT IN THE WORLD
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9672 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2005 :  08:07:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by breakballs



quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

The closer to ground you blow the support, the less explosive needed.



Yes, the bigger plane you send against Pentagon, the faster it vanishes.



If I go to Pentagon right now and take photos, I'll have evidence that the crash never took place, because there are no breaches in the wall and parts of any plane lying on the grass...

Timing is important. Lots of pictures were taken during course of time, and not that many pics were taken before people started clearing out debris. If you really want to create a conspiracy theory, all they have to do is pick and choose what pics to publish in order to make people believe their rubbish. Photos taken at different points in time, to weave a web of lies.

Usually, the debris is collected and transported to a site where they use them to lay out the pieces where they belong, relative to each-other, where investigators can examine them. My guess is that that should have been done with this plane also.

You don't seem to know much about an air-plane's construction. They aren't massive like a car. The wings are covered with very thin aluminium, almost foil. Most of them is just air, and in some places, fuel-tanks. If you wrap them as they would in such a crash, it wouldn't take up much space. The same goes for the main fuselage. It's a frame structure with lots of air in it, covered in aluminium foil. Compress it, and there's not much left.

A small single engine Piper Cub would not do much more than breaking a few windows...
Even a Lear-Jet that you can rent wasn't big enough to take the towers down, and they would be much easier to hijack.
In order to get a massive impact they needed a huge plane.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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breakballs
Sockpuppet

53 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2005 :  11:12:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send breakballs a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

If I go to Pentagon right now and take photos, I'll have evidence that the crash never took place, because there are no breaches in the wall and parts of any plane lying on the grass...




Doesn't have Pentagon any camcorders along its boundary that could film the big plane?
My superstore has 4 camcorders.



THE BEST HELICOPTER PILOT IN THE WORLD
Edited by - breakballs on 10/21/2005 11:45:37
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courageouslion
New Member

USA
9 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2005 :  08:03:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send courageouslion a Private Message
Yep...my credibility is waning. What a bunch of skeptics! I have to admit, I am impressed at the logic and common sense of this crowd. So much so that I will spend my energies elsewere as trying to convice a bunch of people who believe THIER government would NEVER do something like this is a waste of my time. Have a good life so called skeptics. And of course this doesn't pertain to those who actually do believe the possibility exists that the "perfect" government of the US would never blow up the world trade center and fake 9/11...naaaaaa...


They call this a skeptics forum? ROTGLMFGO!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2005 :  08:14:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by courageouslion

Yep...my credibility is waning. What a bunch of skeptics! I have to admit, I am impressed at the logic and common sense of this crowd. So much so that I will spend my energies elsewere as trying to convice a bunch of people who believe THIER government would NEVER do something like this is a waste of my time. Have a good life so called skeptics. And of course this doesn't pertain to those who actually do believe the possibility exists that the "perfect" government of the US would never blow up the world trade center and fake 9/11...naaaaaa...



I think that our current government is perfectly capable of pulling shit like this. But the evidence in support of it isn't there. A skeptic doesn't doubt something just to be doubting it. He/she first looks at the evidence; all of the evidence.

Ah well; sayanora...


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 10/22/2005 10:34:49
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ktesibios
SFN Regular

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2005 :  09:18:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ktesibios a Private Message
If someone's reputation as a badmash were evidence that they commited a particular crime, then criminal trials would require nothing but a parade of character witnesses. Judges and juries would have no need to sit through all the tedious presentation of eyewitness testimony, physical evidence, expert testimony and so forth. It would be so much more cost-effective than the present system of expecting each side to present the evidence in support of their case and to explain the reasoning process by which they draw a conclusion from that evidence.

As it happens, we've learned- the hard way- that all that tedium is a much more effective method of finding the truth than simply making a gut decision and ordering lunch.

What the conspiracy-mongers are demanding is that we trash all our hard-won knowledge of how to reach a defensible explanation of an event and judge the murder of several thousand people by means which we wouldn't apply to solving a common burglary.

If, courageouslion, you ever have a genuine case to present, instead of a basket of innuendo, unqualified opinion and well-poisoning, do please drop by and show it to us.

"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2005 :  09:50:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by courageouslion

Yep...my credibility is waning. What a bunch of skeptics! I have to admit, I am impressed at the logic and common sense of this crowd. So much so that I will spend my energies elsewere as trying to convice a bunch of people who believe THIER government would NEVER do something like this is a waste of my time. Have a good life so called skeptics. And of course this doesn't pertain to those who actually do believe the possibility exists that the "perfect" government of the US would never blow up the world trade center and fake 9/11...naaaaaa...

Could it be that you're so entrenched in your thinking that you are unable to consider any other possibility? Is it that you are not accustomed to being held to a set of standards above those of armchair speculation? See a film that confirms your bias, nuff said?

Personally speaking, I think the Bush administration would stoop to just about any means to get what it wants. Does that mean they blew up the WTC? Does it follow that they did? One part of being a skeptic is to use the method of critical thinking to cut through our own bias. To see if what we might be inclined to believe is what actually happened.

But let me cut to the chase. I think you are a lazy thinker. Your use of logical fallacies, even after those fallacies have been pointed out to you is again lazy. Rather than answer your critics, you have lashed out at them. Perhaps you just waded in over your head at SFN. I dunno. I'm sure there are “skeptics” that you will be more comfortable with. Skeptics very much like yourself. Have fun preaching to the choir. I'm sure you will learn a lot of important lessons there…

And hey, don't let the door hit you in the ass…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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