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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 09/26/2005 : 14:34:20 [Permalink]
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| "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 15:10:22 [Permalink]
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Actually Dr M. and HH, I am not prone to the conspiracy mindset, if there is such a thing. I was relunctant to 'go there', and I even chastised some people I knew who had the nerve to mistrust their 'government'. Now I know better, at least I think so.
You will find it is not, by and large, the 'gullible' who are believing such conspiracy theory. Rather the gullible are prone to believe what they hear over and over in the mainstream media (or, say, in church). It is the freethinkers who tend to buck the trend and investigate things more independently and fully.
Conspiracies exist. Even the typical American who believes the 'official' 911 legend believes that certain Saudis conspired. People like myself merely take the position that the conspiracy was not restricted to the Saudis, but that certain officials in US intelligence played a part.
It's true. The US Intelligence is not all goodness and light. Yes some lie and can be very good at it. (Don't believe it yet?) They are masters of spin and obfuscation. At the same time I applaud the human sentimentality and patriotism of the average American which reels in unbelief when someone proposes that some US citizens (!) could conspire to kill thousands of US citizens to further the long term so-called 'national interest'. The average German had no idea that the highest officals in his government could be so morally bankrupt. Think, you so-called skeptics.
Mark
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 15:43:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
It's true. The US Intelligence is not all goodness and light.
No shit, Sherlock...
Too many Americans still believe that Saddam and Iraq had something to do with the 9/11-attack. If you look in places like Rapture Ready bulletin board, the Saddam-&-Iraq believers ratio is far higher than average. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 18:30:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
At the same time I applaud the human sentimentality and patriotism of the average American which reels in unbelief when someone proposes that some US citizens (!) could conspire to kill thousands of US citizens to further the long term so-called 'national interest'.
The idea that that is the reason why people here object to the 9/11 conspiracies theories is incredibly naive of you, markie.quote:
The average German had no idea that the highest officals in his government could be so morally bankrupt.
We're not talking about moral bankruptcy, we're talking about the cover-up which, if it involved people at high levels, would require that hundreds of underpaid and underappreciated government workers keep their mouths shut.
Quick: list every conspiracy that's never come to light due to people keeping a secret.quote:
Think, you so-called skeptics.
And that's just insulting. What is it about 9/11 conspiracies which prompts believers to blatantly call the disbelievers idiots? Do you think you'll be able to convince anyone of anything like that? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 18:54:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
We're not talking about moral bankruptcy, we're talking about the cover-up which, if it involved people at high levels, would require that hundreds of underpaid and underappreciated government workers keep their mouths shut.
But it's more than that, Dave! Not just government workers, but scores of civilians the testomony of whom-- when, for instance, spouses called from planes, etc.-- matched that of the "conspiring" government workers! The conspiracy would reach into the thousands, many of whom would have no incentive to lie! Indeed, most have every incentive to tell the truth and (were it the case) expose the government's own lies! But alas... |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 22:24:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by markie
At the same time I applaud the human sentimentality and patriotism of the average American which reels in unbelief when someone proposes that some US citizens (!) could conspire to kill thousands of US citizens to further the long term so-called 'national interest'.
The idea that that is the reason why people here object to the 9/11 conspiracies theories is incredibly naive of you, markie.
Hey, it's just one reason among possibly many.
quote:
quote:
The average German had no idea that the highest officals in his government could be so morally bankrupt.
We're not talking about moral bankruptcy, we're talking about the cover-up which, if it involved people at high levels, would require that hundreds of underpaid and underappreciated government workers keep their mouths shut.
Granted, the cover up is the most difficult stage. The most important part of conspiracy coverup is to delay or diminish the public consciousness of the criminal event. In hindsight we are conscious of conspiracies in the past, which *at the time* were hardly comprehended as conspiracies by the population, certainly not enough to overthrow the perpetrators. But at the time, probably the population was sufficiently dazed and confused to prevent any kind of united stand against a violation of their ideals.
There need not be 'hundreds' of government workers who are in the conspiracy loop. All a 'worker' need receive is, say, a stand down order, and he's stands down, just doing his job. He doens't know the *reason* his boss gets him to do something, he just does it. Hardly complicity in a conspiracy. At the individual level one seldom has reason to suspect something. It's when one sees the larger picture that we can see something's amiss.
That's what one sees in 9-11. So many happy coincidences for the 'terrorists'. But the picture is sufficiently muddied that it is difficult to come to a united conclusion. And when a critical amount of time has passed it just doesn't matter anymore. Yeah, that's right. Look up "An Act of State" at amazon.com and you'll see that, in the late 1990s, there was a trial in which the *jury* agreed that several parties including the government, the FBI, and local police were complicit in Dr. Martin Luther King's assassination. What? Never heard of the case? Go figure. (Meanwhile, the innocent person accused and imprisoned for the assassination went to his grave denying he had killed King.)
As someone's signature says,
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." Yeah, even some skeptics included. But they *do* spend a lot of time thinking about the implausibilities of cover-ups and such.
Mark
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 22:33:43 [Permalink]
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Dr. Mabuse wrote: I will never cease to be amazed over what religious people can be tricked into believeing.
Way to stay on subject.
Seriously, WTF is the deal with all the angry atheists out there who take any and every opportunity possible to slam religion even in the broadest sense. It's cool to criticize something harmful that a religious group is doing or supporting. But these blanket insults are tiring and make you look arrogant and insecure. There are atheists who fall for dumb theories, and there are religion people who are both highly rational and compassionate. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/26/2005 22:34:20 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 22:37:32 [Permalink]
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| Did anyone else here even bother to watch one of those movies that HYBRID left links to or read the other links he put? Why are you all just debating about this in such broad terms. Why don't you actually get into the nitty gritty details? (That stuff earlier on in the conversation about the air traffic security was a good start.) You guys kept asking HYBRID for evidence, and when he puts some out there, I was the only one to actually watch a movie and critique it. I mean, c'mon, either shit or get off the pot. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 22:40:15 [Permalink]
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| I might also mention that the film suggested by HYBRID that I watched is being taught in a college course in... oh crap I can't remember the state. But anyway, being taught in a class as a legitimate source. Now, frankly, I think that teacher must be a nutcase. But what do you guys think? Watch the damn movie or do some research on it. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 22:42:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by CuneiformistBut it's more than that, Dave! Not just government workers, but scores of civilians the testomony of whom-- when, for instance, spouses called from planes, etc.-- matched that of the "conspiring" government workers! The conspiracy would reach into the thousands, many of whom would have no incentive to lie! Indeed, most have every incentive to tell the truth and (were it the case) expose the government's own lies! But alas...
Please remember that there are differing ideas on the cell phone calls from the planes. The truth might be more complicated. But next time you're in a plane, try calling someone you know on your cell phone. I bet you won't get through.
While I'm here, does anyone remember World Trade Tower 7? Yes, that's the (fourty something) story tower that came down later in the day of 9-11. It had some minor fires, and this very strong steel structure came down like a deck of cards. Imagine that. Cause of collapse? Unknown, or so says the 'official' investigation. And this despite the landlord's (Sliverstein?) video taped record saying it was going to be 'pulled', that is, brought down by explosives. Explosives take days or weeks to plant. Yet the building comes crashing down on 9-11. Almost like the building was laced with explosives to start with, like towers one and two.
Mark
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 22:50:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Almost like the building was laced with explosives to start with, like towers one and two.
Again, involving many people that would be required to keep quiet.
I'm noticing a trend. Given the choice between "we don't know right now" and "conspiracy/supernatural theory of the day", some people would rather choose the latter all the time, as if they can't stand admitting that "we don't know right now" - they must have some kind of explanation no matter how proposterous or unreasonable. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 05:07:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Did anyone else here even bother to watch one of those movies that HYBRID left links to or read the other links he put? Why are you all just debating about this in such broad terms. Why don't you actually get into the nitty gritty details? (That stuff earlier on in the conversation about the air traffic security was a good start.) You guys kept asking HYBRID for evidence, and when he puts some out there, I was the only one to actually watch a movie and critique it. I mean, c'mon, either shit or get off the pot.
An annoying habit of people like HYBRID is to start some thread regarding a crazy idea and then throw in a half-dozen links without comment. Thus, it becomes the responsibility of the doubter to sort through all the junk to figure out what the point of the link it.
Still, at this link, we get lots of un-connected bits of "news" from like-minded comspiracy theorists making some banal observation and then concluding that the only explanation for such a thing is if the government was behind it all.
For instance, here they notequote:
Just three nights before President George W Bush arrived at the swank Colony Resort on Longboat Key on the evening of Sept 10, 2001, Mohamed Atta was staying at a slightly-less tony hotel just two miles down the beach, the Holiday Inn Hotel & Suites—Longboat Key, according to eyewitnesses who contacted the FBI in the immediate aftermath of the attack. Predictably, the story went nowhere.
Really? The story went no where? I wonder why? Oh-- that's because it isn't a story. Unless you infer from this that Atta left some secret note in Bush's hotel room or something. But that's left for the reader to do, leading to wilder and wilder ideas to build up as the conspiracy-minded read's imagination goes into overdrive! |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 09/27/2005 06:40:40 |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 06:04:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yeah, that's right. Look up "An Act of State" at amazon.com and you'll see that, in the late 1990s, there was a trial in which the *jury* agreed that several parties including the government, the FBI, and local police were complicit in Dr. Martin Luther King's assassination.
If anyone is interested in the actual transcripts of the trial they can be found here.
The jury found in favor of the King family in the wrongful death of Martin and awarded them $100 in damages.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 06:44:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Please remember that there are differing ideas on the cell phone calls from the planes. The truth might be more complicated. But next time you're in a plane, try calling someone you know on your cell phone. I bet you won't get through.
At cruise altitude, this is true. Cell towers range usually is Line of Sight for 2 miles. This means that if you are flying below say 10,000 feet, you will probably be able to get a signal.
Also, those planes carry the phones in the back of the chair, which work at any altitude. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 07:31:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
quote:
Originally posted by CuneiformistBut it's more than that, Dave! Not just government workers, but scores of civilians the testomony of whom-- when, for instance, spouses called from planes, etc.-- matched that of the "conspiring" government workers! The conspiracy would reach into the thousands, many of whom would have no incentive to lie! Indeed, most have every incentive to tell the truth and (were it the case) expose the government's own lies! But alas...
Please remember that there are differing ideas on the cell phone calls from the planes. The truth might be more complicated. But next time you're in a plane, try calling someone you know on your cell phone. I bet you won't get through.
While I'm here, does anyone remember World Trade Tower 7? Yes, that's the (fourty something) story tower that came down later in the day of 9-11. It had some minor fires, and this very strong steel structure came down like a deck of cards. Imagine that. Cause of collapse? Unknown, or so says the 'official' investigation. And this despite the landlord's (Sliverstein?) video taped record saying it was going to be 'pulled', that is, brought down by explosives. Explosives take days or weeks to plant. Yet the building comes crashing down on 9-11. Almost like the building was laced with explosives to start with, like towers one and two.
Mark
The structural failures of towers one and two have been done to death by structural engineers. They failed because of the fire. WTC7 failed due to a raging deisel fire which, untreated, caused the building to collapse.
http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch5.pdf
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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