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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2005 :  01:13:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
American Scientist : Being Stalked by Intelligent Design,
by Pat Shipman.

"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2005 :  03:24:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
Oh dear....

http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/398

...Dembski seems to be off his meds.....


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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9672 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2005 :  04:35:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
Any argument involving Dembski to prove that ID is non-religious is automatically disqualified.
Good find Starman.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2005 :  04:43:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
Found it on http://pharyngula.org/

Great site.
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courageouslion
New Member

USA
9 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2005 :  14:42:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send courageouslion a Private Message
Just curious...has anyone here ever studied the Hermetic Laws of the Universe? These laws have been tossed aside for modern "Science" even though modern science in many cases is established on theory that has been unproven. For instance the theory of relativity is said to be proven and yet Quantum mechanics are said to disprove the theory of relativity. Nichola Tesla had tapped into the "awesome life force" that is established as the "ethers" in the Hermetic Laws of the Universe. These "ethers" have been discarded in favor of current trends.

I would ask anyone on this thread if they believe that a typewriter is the product of intelligent design. Or an automobile. Or a jet air liner. Obviously all of the mentioned items are the production of ID. Man's ID. Now, looking at myself and the intricacies of the eye, as well as the reproduction system, (used as often as possible without the intended results), the circulatory system, the way the body as a whole operates, leaves me with a conclusion that their is ID involved. Maybe alien in source. As much as our mechanical objects reflect our ID capability maybe our construction reflects their ID capability.

Who really knows? I do know that my science class in college taught evolution even though they can't find a missing link ANYWHERE between species. Yet we do see evolution within a species for survival purposes etc. No one has ever found the missing link between reptile and mammal or any other species. And yet evolution is taught as if it is a fact, though unproven. Simply another religion in itself.

After reading "The Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine, I had to take a good close look at my so called "Christian" faith. I realize that most I had ever believed was simply that, a belief or faith in something that was supposed rather than proven. ID cannot threaten any existing theory any more than evolution. It is simply an alternative view that seems to appeal to my common sense.

Where our energy goes at death is theory to say the least. After reading the Hermetic Laws of the Universe, subtitled the "Awesome Life Force" I am inclined to believe in an intradimensional transition such as revealed by the flying insects of creation. I guess I will know eventually and as for now I just don't concern myself with the thought too much.

The Egyptians believed in these laws and they were mostly discarded the beginning of this century. I saw someone mention that gravity is a pulling force...the hermetic laws claim it is a pushing force. For instance, what keeps millions of gallons of water floating in the air in the form of clouds and what causes it to come down all of a sudden?
The hermetic laws say that the water is charged electrically the same as the earth and that the discharge that you see in the form of lightning in most cases is the reversing of polarity of the water which allows it to attract to itself and come pouring down as droplets of water.

So much of this is simply a waste of our time anyway!

In the meanwhile...

They call this a skeptics forum? ROTGLMFGO!
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2005 :  15:09:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Were bacteria and viruses designed?
Edit: You say there's never been found a transition between reptile (or rather, dinosaur) and mammal. Well, guess what, there was! Lots of them, in fact. They're called Therapsids. Animals such as the Thrinaxodon and many more.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
Edited by - Siberia on 10/19/2005 15:16:21
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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2005 :  15:21:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by courageouslion
I would ask anyone on this thread if they believe that a typewriter is the product of intelligent design. Or an automobile. Or a jet air liner. Obviously all of the mentioned items are the production of ID. Man's ID. Now, looking at myself and the intricacies of the eye, as well as the reproduction system, (used as often as possible without the intended results), the circulatory system, the way the body as a whole operates, leaves me with a conclusion that their is ID involved. Maybe alien in source. As much as our mechanical objects reflect our ID capability maybe our construction reflects their ID capability.


Why would you compare a living organism to a typewriter in the first place? Silly analogy.

Why would you even propose that an alien is the creator? Surely, that alien would also be so complex that it looks designed. Anything that created that alien would also have to look "designed". Ultimately, the "root" designer would have to be some sort of deity, so why not just skip the aliens and call the designer god straight away?

quote:

I do know that my science class in college taught evolution even though they can't find a missing link ANYWHERE between species. Yet we do see evolution within a species for survival purposes etc. No one has ever found the missing link between reptile and mammal or any other species.

Gosh, the old "there are no missing links anywhere" crap. Speciation happens whether you like it or not.

quote:
And yet evolution is taught as if it is a fact, though unproven. Simply another religion in itself.

You don't know what science is. Evolution is the best natural explanation (theory) for the diversity of life that we see today. It is supported by huge amounts of facts (=evidence). Science accepts theories because of the evidence. Religion believes in a god inspite of (or because of a lack of) the evidence.

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2005 :  17:08:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
courageouslion:
I do know that my science class in college taught evolution even though they can't find a missing link ANYWHERE between species. Yet we do see evolution within a species for survival purposes etc. No one has ever found the missing link between reptile and mammal or any other species. And yet evolution is taught as if it is a fact, though unproven…


Sigh… Here is something for you to read. Claim CC200: There are no transitional fossils.

Edited to add:

The fact that you used “missing link” as a term to be taken seriously (science in college), tells me that you either slept through your science class, or you didn't really take one…

This does get tiresome.

quote:

…Simply another religion in itself.

Nope. Science works in the realm of that which can be falsified. If a better theory comes along that can explain the diversity of life on earth, science will change its view on evolution. (Don't hold your breath for that to happen.) Falsifiablity is no small thing. It is, in fact, what keeps science from becoming the dogma that religion is. ID is not a scientific theory. It cannot be tested, it makes no predictions, it is mere speculation about that which can't be falsified.

And by the way, the idea that you can't see how life could be so complex without intervention is the logical fallicy of Argument from Personal Incredulity. .

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9672 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2005 :  22:00:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by courageouslion
It is simply an alternative view that seems to appeal to my common sense.

The problem with "common sense" is that it isn't "good sense".
Good sense is unfortunately very uncommon.

Unfortunately, it looks to me that religious people are prone to have the common kind of sense that isn't as good as it should be.

The little I've seen on Hermetic Laws tells me that it's not science.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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markie
Skeptic Friend

Canada
356 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2005 :  00:11:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send markie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by courageouslion

Just curious...has anyone here ever studied the Hermetic Laws of the Universe?


I haven't heard of the Hermetic Laws of the Universe, but from what you've shared some of the ideas sound a little like those of Mach, ie, that gravity is a push from without rather a pull from within. Einstein had a great fondness for some of Mach's ideas as I recall.

About ID, it'ce nice to see your skepticism against the doctrine of materialism, the belief that the universe is just material mechanism. Your own consciousness refutes that belief of course. Your own truth quest urge refutes that. It is no accident that we have evolved the ability to faith-reach for realities beyond the merely material.

Welcome to the atheist, er skeptic friends network courageouslion!

Mark
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2005 :  00:43:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by courageouslion

Now, looking at myself and the intricacies of the eye, as well as the reproduction system, (used as often as possible without the intended results), the circulatory system, the way the body as a whole operates, leaves me with a conclusion that their is ID involved. Maybe alien in source. As much as our mechanical objects reflect our ID capability maybe our construction reflects their ID capability.
Wo assembled your eye? Your reproduction system? your circulatory system?
Do you understand the difference between your body and the other examples you mentioned?
quote:
Who really knows?
We can usually trust the scientists in the field to have a better than average grasp of what is going on.
quote:
I do know that my science class in college taught evolution even though they can't find a missing link ANYWHERE between species.
This is wrong. Kil gave you a link with references wich shows you why. Repeating this false assertion after being shown this link would make you a liar.
quote:
No one has ever found the missing link between reptile and mammal or any other species. And yet evolution is taught as if it is a fact, though unproven. Simply another religion in itself.
Another false assertion. There are transitional forms between reptiles and mammals, see here or here.
That evolution occurs and have occurred is a fact. The Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory which explains how this works. Nothing in science gets proven, but some things gets disproved like creationism and "evolution can not account for irreducible complexity" have been.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2005 :  02:17:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by markie
About ID, it'ce nice to see your skepticism against the doctrine of materialism, the belief that the universe is just material mechanism. Your own consciousness refutes that belief of course. Your own truth quest urge refutes that. It is no accident that we have evolved the ability to faith-reach for realities beyond the merely material.
Man, markie, you sure know how to rile me. None of these statements of yours is remotely reasonable. What I find perhaps even more amazing than your capacity for irrational thoughts is the idea that you were specifically designed to think them. Talk about self-deluded.

quote:
Welcome to the atheist, er skeptic friends network courageouslion!
Yeah, this isn't an atheist board, as you rightly corrected yourself. But skeptics are in the business of requiring proof for all claims, which means that in general less skeptics will be theists than the credulous public. Of course, those skeptics who are theists generally know that their beliefs are unevidenced, such as your own. While I personally cannot understand the motive behind adopting such beliefs, I do realize the limits of what I can prove.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/20/2005 02:19:44
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2005 :  05:23:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Yeah, this isn't an atheist board, as you rightly corrected yourself. But skeptics are in the business of requiring proof for all claims, which means that in general less skeptics will be theists than the credulous public. Of course, those skeptics who are theists generally know that their beliefs are unevidenced, such as your own. While I personally cannot understand the motive behind adopting such beliefs, I do realize the limits of what I can prove.


Such as our good friend Valiant Dancer, who is a theist and *knows* his religion is unevidenced. He adopts it on a pure philosophical basis.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9672 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2005 :  08:19:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia

quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Yeah, this isn't an atheist board, as you rightly corrected yourself. But skeptics are in the business of requiring proof for all claims, which means that in general less skeptics will be theists than the credulous public. Of course, those skeptics who are theists generally know that their beliefs are unevidenced, such as your own. While I personally cannot understand the motive behind adopting such beliefs, I do realize the limits of what I can prove.


Such as our good friend Valiant Dancer, who is a theist and *knows* his religion is unevidenced. He adopts it on a pure philosophical basis.

Not only that, Valiant Dancer is a staff member.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2005 :  08:30:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
Gosh, while I am not a theist, I identify as agnostic. And I am an administrator and a co-founder of SFN. Nice try Markie...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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