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 Gorrilas observed using stick tools in the wild
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2998 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2005 :  08:20:29  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
http://www.newsday.com/news/science/wire/sns-ap-gorilla-tools,0,4508608.story?coll=sns-ap-science-headlines

quote:
For the first time, biologists have documented gorillas in the wild using simple tools, such as poking a stick in a swampy pool of water to check its depth.

Until now, scientists had seen gorillas use tools only in captivity. Among the great apes, tool use in the wild was thought to be a survival skill reserved for smaller chimpanzees and orangutans.


I'm not saying this has anything to do with evolution, but I couldn't find a forum to post this in. But it is intersting...

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.

CourseKnot
Skeptic Friend

USA
82 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2005 :  09:29:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send CourseKnot a Private Message
You beat me to it. I have a copy of the artical right on my desk. lol

Just flying through space with the rest of you...
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2005 :  10:16:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
If anything, shows that gorillas aren't as far from us as some people would like to think.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2005 :  10:33:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Like ravens? They use sticks as well. This is not really evidence of connection to humans, it is however evidence of intelligence potential.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Siberia
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Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2005 :  10:44:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Like ravens? They use sticks as well. This is not really evidence of connection to humans, it is however evidence of intelligence potential.


Yeah, of course. But it 'closes the gap' a little. We've more in common than at first thought, generally speaking.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
Edited by - Siberia on 09/30/2005 10:45:33
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beskeptigal
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USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2005 :  10:56:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
I thought this was already known. Is it only chimps that have been seen using tools and not gorillas?

Chimps use twigs to get termites out of holes and sticks to break nuts for which it takes a bit of mom's teaching to accomplish.

So what am I missing here?

Heck, the crows around here drop filbert nuts from high up onto certain parking lots. The pavement is definitely being used as a tool. Just because they take the nut to the rock instead of the rock to the nut doesn't change the nature of the beast.
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Siberia
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Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2005 :  11:19:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

I thought this was already known. Is it only chimps that have been seen using tools and not gorillas?

Chimps use twigs to get termites out of holes and sticks to break nuts for which it takes a bit of mom's teaching to accomplish.


It was observed among chimps, but not gorillas.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2005 :  12:16:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Tool use in nature isn't all that uncommon, so it comes as little suprise that a creature as dexterous as a gorrila does so. P'raps the other way 'round, eh?

Any creature that is capable of learning as much as Koko in captivity could surely learn to use simple objects in some mechanical way in the wild.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9682 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2005 :  13:56:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
The really cool thing to watch are those experiments where the application of a tool is not immediately connected to the probem: To get the banana out of the box it has to be unhatched, but the hatch is locked by a sprint which is turn is locked by a piece of sturdy rope that can only be cut by the stone if the round stone is cracked in half to get a sharp edge.

When I was standing outside the cage of some apes in London Zoo and studied their features intently, I was struck by the glimmer of intelligence lurking behind their eyes and forehead. The way they acted, it's clear they are thinking creatures, though perhaps not as abstract as homo sapien.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2005 :  20:53:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
I read an article a while back about a guy who was teaching chimps to make flint tools to cut ropes for treats. He said when he was with them, showing them how to bang a rock against a raw piece of flint to split the flint for an edge, they seemed to get it but had trouble with aim. When he wasn't with them, they'd just smash the raw flint on the concrete floor until it shattered, and select a sharp piece.

Which is more important, skill or pragmatism?

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2005 :  22:18:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

I read an article a while back about a guy who was teaching chimps to make flint tools to cut ropes for treats. He said when he was with them, showing them how to bang a rock against a raw piece of flint to split the flint for an edge, they seemed to get it but had trouble with aim. When he wasn't with them, they'd just smash the raw flint on the concrete floor until it shattered, and select a sharp piece.

Which is more important, skill or pragmatism?

Does not the first often follow the second? And the second necessary to inspire the first?

Well, that was gibberish....

"The monkey said, 'Red, you made a man out of me, now I'm gonna make a monkey outta you!'" (From a '50s song -- forgotten the titie.)


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Randy
SFN Regular

USA
1990 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2005 :  05:50:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Randy a Private Message
Then there's the hawks/eagles(?) that will swoop down on a small tortoise and fly to heights targeting rocks to drop its prey. After a few attempts, the bird lands and enjoys a meal of 'cracked' turtle.
Certain surburbian birds have learned to pick up a pecan or hard shell nut and drop it into a roadway for a passing car to run over. Bird then hops out to harvest the meat.
Whales use their expelled breath of bubbles to encircle, frighten and corral fish. Surges up to eat same.
Geez, next they'll be building a better toaster oven.
Once humankind possibly exterminates itself, the torch will pass on to other capable hands/claws/flippers/pinchers.

"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."

"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson
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