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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/13/2005 : 05:02:09 [Permalink]
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| So, why don't we change the laws and make any murder legal if that's all it takes to stop crime? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 05:12:57 [Permalink]
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Murders are illegal. Not all killings, not even all intentional killings, are murders.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 05:26:51 [Permalink]
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| An illegal war is murder. The worst kind of murder and torture. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 05:36:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
So, gang members aren't lawyers, so they can't be held accountable for their actions.
I've already explained why the gang analogy fails. Your continued use of it weakens any potential position you might take (though you only rarely take an actual position, and instead "ask questions").quote:
You are right, I did not quite write what I meant about my own participation. I don't know that you and I are committing a crime myself, nor have I ever promoted the idea that soldiers are criminals. I am part of a corrupt system, and therefore have some responsibility for that. I am not, however, pulling a trigger. Before I pull a trigger, I want to know why. And you're telling me that people, about to slaughter thousands, do not have to know why, they just have to follow orders. Why does any of this make sense to you? I'm not saying you are wrong, I am asking why.
They've been fed stories about why they're there. Many of them "believe in the mission" they're there to do. The stories they've been told come from our government which, like it or not, resulted from the choices we've made in terms of our representation over the last umpty-ump decades. This would all be true regardless of the legality of the war, and is why we don't hold any soldiers from any country personally responsible for their not clearly illegal actions. This isn't something we only "consider" for our own, U.S., troops - it's something we consider global. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 06:10:14 [Permalink]
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Well, we consider it for "our own" because we don't want the U.S. to have to answer to some democratic international body. We want to be able to order our soldiers to do illegal things.
Thanks for the ideas. Not sure I'm any smarter, but I appreciate the discussion. I'll look more into the legal aspect of all of it. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 08:08:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
The evidence is there and we're talking about something completely unrelated?
Impeach Bush, not the troops!
It's not unrelated. No one here takes the idea that Bush is a criminal seriously. No one takes the idea that he is no different than any other criminal seriously. Hundreds of thousands of people have died because of the U.S. war against the people of Iraq, and people act like that would be okay with them if it happened to them. It's just war, after all. No one means any harm.
[/quote]
Back up the truck, Ace.
You have completely missed the stance being taken against you.
We freely admit that leaders of nations engaged in an illegal war should be held accountable.
What we have been continuing to argue is that the members of the military (of which the President is not) are not criminals by fulfilling their obligation to the military.
If it happened to me, I would not hold the individual soldiers accountable for prosecuting a war against my country. I would hold the leaders of the foreign country accountable for it.
Private Cannonfodder has no say in where he goes or what nation's military he kills. That is the nature of militaries. And no amount of anarchist reasoning will change this strictly authoritarian model.
You don't agree with the model, then don't join the military. If drafted, be a consciencious objector or flee the country.
You have asked very loaded questions and we have interpreted them. You then bitch about the interpretation. Enough word games, Gorgo. And enough bitching about what heartless bastards we all are because we don't get our knickers in a twist over the nature of humans to go to war in authoritarian systems. This is life, Gorgo. Life isn't fair. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 09:29:14 [Permalink]
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Is it that the questions are not loaded, or it is you that are half-cocked?
I vote for the latter. I don't think I ever got an answer. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/13/2005 09:35:43 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 09:40:41 [Permalink]
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[quote
"If President Bush did not tell the truth about his reasons for going to war with Iraq, Congress should consider holding him accountable by impeaching him."
[/quote]
You see, it never mattered if he lied about anything. Attacking other countries is a violation of international law except to remove an imminent threat. Even if there were any kind of realistic imminent threat, which was never even lied about, the next step after removing that threat, is to take the matter to the U.N. There is nothing in international law which allows someone to take over an entire country for no reason. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 09:51:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Is it that the questions are not loaded, or it is you that are half-cocked?
I vote for the latter. I don't think I ever got an answer.
You got answers from me. I find it interesting that others here saw the same loaded questions and called them as such.
Methinks the gentleman protest too much. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 10:06:16 [Permalink]
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| I think it interesting that you think that a group of people can't all misinterpret something. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 11:21:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I think it interesting that you think that a group of people can't all misinterpret something.
Whatever, Gorgo.
If that's what you got from that, fine.
You need to be right for this one, so I give. Chomski is God. The US is inherently evil and all soldiers fighting in wars you don't approve of should be criminals. To hell with international law unless it suits you.
Feel better now? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 11:31:59 [Permalink]
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I'm with Val on this one. It's been explained to you that the same rules apply to all countries who are signatories to the treaties the U.S. has signed which have an impact on how wars are conducted, but you still want to talk about the situation as if we were being Ameri-centric. That, along with the questions loaded with false premises, does nothing but annoy. And it also tells me why you don't feel any smarter: you've insulated yourself from actually being a part of a discussion here. I, for one, am done with it.
Yuck. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 12:52:19 [Permalink]
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| That wasn't a slam on you all to say that I'm not any smarter. That was an attempt to say that I will digest what you've said and attempt to learn. I understand your fear of talking about things you'd rather people kept quiet about, though. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 13:02:38 [Permalink]
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| That's rather condescending, don't you think? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 13:16:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I understand your fear of talking about things you'd rather people kept quiet about, though.
It's not fear. We just don't agree with you, Gorgo, ok? We don't share your skewed sense of ethics. We think you're wrong. But fear has nothing to do with it. You're become a broken record, Gorgo. Just another fanatic to be ignored.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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