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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 10/14/2005 : 12:03:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
In addition to apathy about crime, you are illiterate. I have not said that soldiers are criminals.
Then why the fuck do you keep asking why we should not consider them criminals? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 12:22:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
It is not illegal for a soldier to kill an enemy soldier in combat.
Again, that's your interpretation of the law, and not everyone's. I have said that I understand that some people disagree with that, and that has nothing to do with my question. I find all the information interesting but sort of moot, since the U.S. has always held itself above international law and has always held a different standard for itself and its friends than others.
The question is not, are they criminals, the question is, why are they not considered criminals. That's all. Why is this such an emotional issue for you? Are you afraid of Muslims or people from Southwest Asia in general or what? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/14/2005 12:23:52 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 12:38:26 [Permalink]
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Fuck it. Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.
At the risk of offending delicate sensibilities: never, in the history of warfare, has the regular soldier on either side been considered a criminal. Whether it's right or wrong really doesn't matter; it just ain't done! That doesn't always hold true for irregulars -- the Loyalists fighting along side the British and Hessians in the American Revolution took something of a beating.
Now, I'm sure there are people who don't like this arraingment, and even some who would happily prosecute every veteran of Vietnam and Iraq, and to them I say: "Tough titty! That's the way it is, so fucking live with it!"
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 12:50:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgoquote:
It is not illegal for a soldier to kill an enemy soldier in combat.
Again, that's your interpretation of the law, and not everyone's. I have said that I understand that some people disagree with that, and that has nothing to do with my question. I find all the information interesting but sort of moot, since the U.S. has always held itself above international law and has always held a different standard for itself and its friends than others.
Are you really this stupid? The great majority of countries agree that this is the correct reading of the Geneva Convention of 1949.
quote:
The question is not, are they criminals, the question is, why are they not considered criminals. That's all. Why is this such an emotional issue for you? Are you afraid of Muslims or people from Southwest Asia in general or what?
What is your basic problem that you need to insinuate that I am somehow racist from a universal and generalized statement of "soldiers fighting a war are not criminals".
There is no emotional issue other than your repeated lack of understaning for basic context is getting infuriating. You continually miss the meaning that everyone else gets. Do you really have this much trouble with relating to authoritarian models of government? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 10/14/2005 12:52:03 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 14:41:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Now, I'm sure there are people who don't like this arraingment, and even some who would happily prosecute every veteran of Vietnam and Iraq, and to them I say: "Tough titty! That's the way it is, so fucking live with it!"
Oh, I don't know anyone that doesn't like it. It's amazing that it's considered Un-American to ask the question though and create such a hysterical reaction from people like Valiant Dancer. It's just a question. Guess he reads too much David Horowitz and David Duke. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 14:59:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
It's amazing that it's considered Un-American to ask the question though and create such a hysterical reaction from people like Valiant Dancer. It's just a question. Guess he reads too much David Horowitz and David Duke.
You've asked hysterical questions, but the replies you've gotten have been quite reasonable. And yes, I'm including the name calling. You are being fucking obtuse.
And you also continue to accuse people of labeling you "un-American." This despite everyone's best attempts to repeatedly explain nationalism has nothing to do with this issue? Gorgo, you are simply not listening to a damn word anyone is saying. Now you've added accusations of racism to your list. You need to seriously check yourself. You are being completely irrational. Your emotions have clouded your thinking.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/15/2005 00:10:49 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 16:53:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
How much evidence of a country having weapons of mass destruction and planning to use them against us do you need before it is a legal war?
That was the purpose of sending UN weapons inspectors: They were there to rule out the existence of those weapons. They reported that there were no weapons to be found. But did your government care? The UN was founded to solve conflicts and ensure world peace, but the US government has constantly ignored UN whenever it served US purpose.
The first invasion of Iraq was not illegal because Iraq had invaded a neighbouring country, and the UN had ruled that invasion illegal and given NATO countries the authority to invade.
Such authority was not given for the current invasion/occupation.
Edited to answer Ricky's question:
Had the inspectors found any weapons of mass destruction, there would still not be cause enough to invade Iraq. Just having WMD does not mean you are ready to initiate hostile action. Pre-emptive strike might be ok if the UN assembly agrees, just because the UN was created for the purpose of regulating such things. Pakistan and India have A-bombs: When is USA planning on invading them?
I would just love to see Iran and North Korea develop nu-ku-lar weapons, just to see what your government would do about it. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/14/2005 17:12:18 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 17:58:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
I would just love to see Iran and North Korea develop nu-ku-lar weapons, just to see what your government would do about it.
Let us elect a democrat to the presidency before you go wishing that on us!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 19:58:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Trish, the United States is part of the UN, it is a signatory to many other treaties which are made the law of the land by article six of the Constitutiton. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Six_of_the_United_States_Constitution
Yes Gorgo, I realize this, which is why I lodged my objection to your declaring the war illegal in the manner in which I did. I am not aware that the US has ever signed a treaty that states only the UN can decide when the US is allowed to declare war. Had the US done so, then yes, we would be in violation of some law, but we have not. We are signatories of the Geneva Conventions which tell us how we must conduct ourselves when we declare war. But the Geneva Convention does not prevent the US from declaring war against another nation, no matter how specious the reasoning. It does make criminals of those who participated in the degradations of prisoners of war in Abu Graib. It does not make of the military, in general, nor the individual soldier, sailor, or Marine a criminal for participating in a war that is at best not based on good reasoning for being declared. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 21:29:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
It's amazing that it's considered Un-American to ask the question though and create such a hysterical reaction from people like Valiant Dancer. It's just a question. Guess he reads too much David Horowitz and David Duke.
I know I said I was done with this, but it's just amazing to watch Gorgo descend into the depths of paranoid delusion. And to do so in such a hypocritical manner, to boot. I mean, how often is Gorgo going to blatantly insult Val? Not that he should need reminding:quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
If you can't engage in a discussion without being insulting, then get lost.
Maybe you should get lost for a while, Gorgo. At least until you can hold a discussion without implying that others here are Klansmen, just because they disagree with you.quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I questioned the "support our troops" crap on another discussion forum which led to me getting banned.
If that discussion went anything like this one has, with you putting idiotic words in other people's mouths, building tremendous strawmen and being generally abusive, then it wasn't the question itself which got you banned, Gorgo. It was you. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 21:48:16 [Permalink]
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Dave, Gorgo does this quite frequently. His opinions with regard to the criminality of the US government in general are strong. I've not read through this entire debate, however, I would not be surprised to find that Gorgo at some point has brought up Noam Chomsky. He seems to be quite the follower where Chomsky is concerned. There was a poster here about 2 or 3 years ago that got into it with Gorgo, she has since then not posted anything.
While any government has some level of corruption the US appears to be the evil empire, no matter what approach it takes to foriegn policy. He also likes to point out the violations of International Law the US commits. As I continue to bring up, the US has not abrogated soveriegnty to any international body, therefore the International Law of which he speaks is essentially in his mind. There is no treaty the US has subjected itself to that states when the US can and can not declare war. Only how it must conduct a war, treat prisoners of war, etc. Abu Graib was a violtation of the Geneva Conventions and the US must hold itself to this standard. Unfortunately, people being what they are, aren't necessarily rational enough to realize why this is necessary for our military.
Anyway, again Gorgo, if the US has not abondoned its right to declare war, the war itself is not illegal, just not rational. Therefore, the military service members are not guilty of committing any crime, nor is the US government. It is the right of a sovereign nation to declare war. The standards for treatment of prisoners of war are open for argument. And as with Nuremburg, the soldiers themselves are subject to trial for war crimes, which is something the US has consented to as signatories of the Geneva Convention. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 22:05:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish
Dave, Gorgo does this quite frequently. His opinions with regard to the criminality of the US government in general are strong.
Yes, Trish, I've been aware of this for some time now, I've just never seen Gorgo's irrationality rise to this level. In the past, even his most-heated comments seemed to be grounded in some sort of fact, but this "people are calling me anti-American just for asking a question" schtick is pure fantasy. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 23:13:04 [Permalink]
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The worst part.... is that almost every person who participates in the SFN forums agrees with the basic idea that the Iraq war is unjust, based on false premises and lies, and is probably worthy of seeing this pathetic excuse we have for a president impeached because of how he got us into it.
Gorgo just can't grasp the concept that a person isn't considered a criminal UNLESS they commt a criminal act. While our president is probably guilty of dozens of crimes, including lies to go to war, the troops who fight in wars are NOT criminals just for fighting in wars. Even illegal ones. Governments, not soldiers, bear the burden of accountability for wars they order.
I really don't understand why Gorgo is being deliberately obtuse on this.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 10:50:05 [Permalink]
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I'm not sure Gorgo is being deliberately obtuse. I think he may not be able to help himself.
On the other hand, his question really isn't about current law any longer, it's "why aren't we all being activists to change the law so that soldiers fighting in an illegal war are considered criminals?" Of course, that's already been answered as well, but Gorgo considers the answers given to be boilerplate fascist replies, instead of reasoned discourse.
When one is as far left as Gorgo, everyone looks like a jack-booted thug. If this keeps going, I may start an SFN pool, the winner of which will be the one to best predict when Gorgo will compare Noam Chomsky to Joseph Mengele. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 13:18:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish
quote:
Trish, the United States is part of the UN, it is a signatory to many other treaties which are made the law of the land by article six of the Constitutiton. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Six_of_the_United_States_Constitution
Yes Gorgo, I realize this, which is why I lodged my objection to your declaring the war illegal in the manner in which I did. I am not aware that the US has ever signed a treaty that states only the UN can decide when the US is allowed to declare war. Had the US done so, then yes, we would be in violation of some law, but we have not. We are signatories of the Geneva Conventions which tell us how we must conduct ourselves when we declare war. But the Geneva Convention does not prevent the US from declaring war against another nation, no matter how specious the reasoning. It does make criminals of those who participated in the degradations of prisoners of war in Abu Graib. It does not make of the military, in general, nor the individual soldier, sailor, or Marine a criminal for participating in a war that is at best not based on good reasoning for being declared.
Yes, the U.N. must approve the war unless there is an immediate threat. Please read my link on about the second page. Had the UNSC not followed some reasonable track towards solving whatever imaginary problem existed, then you might have a case. However, you do not. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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