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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 10/05/2005 : 16:55:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I am asking why, since these attacks on other countries are in violation of international law, and the Constitution clearly states that these treaties are the law of the land, why we do not consider the troops to be criminals.
Dude already answered this question. It is because troops are never considered criminals just for fighting in a war, even an illegal one.
I hope you consider your confusion on this matter resolved.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/05/2005 20:57:03 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2005 : 18:32:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
I am asking why, since these attacks on other countries are in violation of international law, and the Constitution clearly states that these treaties are the law of the land, why we do not consider the troops to be criminals.
quote:
It is much worse to start a war than to rob liquor stores. This is not a grey area. This is a crime against humanity.
Obviously you are not capable of distinguishing the difference between the individual soldiers and the commander in chief, and what the different levels of accountability are.
You are, essentially, preaching to the choir here when you express a desire to see Bush held to account for this war.
You take that step off the fanatic cliff when you start blathering about calling the individual soldiers criminals for fighting when ordered to fight.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2005 : 20:24:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
We see, because of the emotional reaction of some, that we are treading on some sacred cows for asking a question. Some have me spitting on troops and sending them to prison. Some think I'm an ass or obtuse because they're unable to understand the question, and their emotional ties to the question keep them from engaging in reasonable discussion. One of them tells me to join the service to understand. Why don't I ask them to join a gang to understand?
The hypocrisy of the above is astounding. Really, Gorgo, I've seen you be an ass before, but the above just takes the cake. The "emotional ties" you have to the question are obvious: any answer you don't like will be rejected as a failure to understand the question due to someone's "sacred cows" being stepped on. And you, of course, don't feel any need to answer other people's questions to aid the understanding. You're free to insult whomever you like, even though you know insults don't help.
You're projecting, Gorgo. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2005 : 21:01:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
We see, because of the emotional reaction of some, that we are treading on some sacred cows for asking a question. Some have me spitting on troops and sending them to prison. Some think I'm an ass or obtuse because they're unable to understand the question, and their emotional ties to the question keep them from engaging in reasonable discussion. One of them tells me to join the service to understand. Why don't I ask them to join a gang to understand?
The hypocrisy of the above is astounding. Really, Gorgo, I've seen you be an ass before, but the above just takes the cake. The "emotional ties" you have to the question are obvious: any answer you don't like will be rejected as a failure to understand the question due to someone's "sacred cows" being stepped on. And you, of course, don't feel any need to answer other people's questions to aid the understanding. You're free to insult whomever you like, even though you know insults don't help.
You're projecting, Gorgo.
Is he projecting, Dave? Notice the repeated use of the "we" in the above paragraph. Perhaps Gorgo is merely posting a dialogue had between his two split personalities, ala Gollum in The Lord of the Rings. ("We don't likes this illegal war...give us our precious!")
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2005 : 05:18:03 [Permalink]
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| As I said. Unable to engage in reasonable discussion. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2005 : 05:38:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gorgo
I am asking why, since these attacks on other countries are in violation of international law, and the Constitution clearly states that these treaties are the law of the land, why we do not consider the troops to be criminals.
Dude already answered this question. It is because troops are never considered criminals just for fighting in a war, even an illegal one.
I hope you consider your confusion on this matter resolved.
Thanks for attempting to answer the question instead of just insulting, but what you are saying is that we do not consider them criminals because we do not consider them criminals.
Someone else made an attempt by saying that if we held them accountable, then there would be no wars. All this is saying is that there is no international body (or law) to which the United States is accountable, and to which soldiers can appeal.
Thanks again for attempting to be polite and reasonable. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/09/2005 05:39:37 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2005 : 10:13:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Thanks for attempting to answer the question instead of just insulting, but what you are saying is that we do not consider them criminals because we do not consider them criminals.
The only person saying that is you Gorgo.
They (the individual soldiers) are not criminals because they haven't commited a crime.
If you can't grasp that....
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2005 : 17:21:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
They (the individual soldiers) are not criminals because they haven't commited a crime.
If you can't grasp that....
It's not that he can't grasp it, Dude. He's asking why the individual soldiers aren't criminals if they're fighting in an illegal war.
And the answer is, because nobody's made it a crime to be a soldier in a war, legal or otherwise.
It's that simple.
[Edited to stress the 'why', and add that yes, there's not much difference between your answer and mine, Dude.] |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2005 : 20:40:26 [Permalink]
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A few points of history, as a footnote to this thread:
When WWII ended, the allies captured, tried and sentenced Nazi war criminals and any others who committed war crimes. The Western allies did not consider all German soldiers, sailors and pilots to be war criminals though many were interned for a while then released as civilians. There was also a postwar program throughout Europe which was outlined during the Potsdam Agreement, called "Denazification" and many civilians and any and all former enemy soldiers were subject to its directives.
However, I recall that the U.S.S.R. did consider all invaders to be war criminals. German soldiers captured in Russia were sent to labor camps and many were assigned to rebuilding Russian cities. Some were released but many more were not. Perhaps 40000 died in prison between 1945 and 1950.
Stalin also committed war crimes against the Poles but these were overlooked for a long time.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2005 : 04:21:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
They (the individual soldiers) are not criminals because they haven't commited a crime.
If you can't grasp that....
If I can't grasp that then what? I'm an idiot and an "ass" and you're not?
What you are saying is that we do not consider them criminals because we do not consider them to be criminals. This war is a crime. Nuremberg has established that following orders does not excuse crimes. Granted, they did not prosecute anyone of lower rank for illegally invading countries, but lack of prosecution does not mean that it is not a crime. The history of law in this country has established that ignorance is no excuse.
I'm not promoting the idea that these people should be executed. In fact, just the opposite but I'm too obtuse and too much of an ass to attempt to discuss that with someone so bright and kind as yourself. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2005 : 04:23:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
And the answer is, because nobody's made it a crime to be a soldier in a war, legal or otherwise.
It's that simple.
[Edited to stress the 'why', and add that yes, there's not much difference between your answer and mine, Dude.]
That's it, thank you. The point is not to execute these people but to ask why we feel we need to put them up on pedestals. Often the law is arbitrary, and it has been shown that crime is more a factor of things society can change, such as education and health care. These people are doing far more damage than any street criminal, yet we tell them how wonderful they are and that they are protecting "freedom" and "democracy."
Why do we put these people up on a pedestal when what they are doing is illegal and destructive? Are they not part of a criminal venture? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/10/2005 04:52:29 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2005 : 08:12:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm not promoting the idea that these people should be executed. In fact, just the opposite but I'm too obtuse and too much of an ass to attempt to discuss that with someone so bright and kind as yourself.
You said it.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2005 : 09:06:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
You said it.
Something else we can agree on. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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