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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 11/02/2005 :  21:47:14  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
On November 17th, there will be a Creationist giving a presentation at my college (Virginia Tech). I plan on attending, as there will be a q/a period afterwards.

The topics include:

Mutation, homology, embryology, horse evolution, whale evolution, bird
evolution, irreducibly complexity, and the origin of life.

Most likely what will come up for mutations is that no positive mutations exist. Right now, I know of sickle cell to protect against malaria, bacteria evolving to survive antibiotics, and viruses such as the flu and AIDS mutating. Does anyone know of other specific examples?

I have no idea what could be arguments against (or using?) homology, which is convergent evolution. Any suggestions?

I'm almost willing to bet my car that embryology will be solely about Hackle and his famous drawings.

If anyone has good sources for horse, whale, and bird evolution, I could use some. I am familiar with most, but it has been a while.

As for irreducible complexity, I have heard of a paper that Behe wrote in which he says that it is possible for irreducibly complex systems can evolve. Does anyone know where I can find this paper?

Abiogenesis I am most likely going to completely ignore because it is not evolution.

Because there will be a q/a section at the end, if you have any good questions to ask, please let me know.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/02/2005 :  22:10:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
What about the nylon bug, isn't that a beneficial mutation? I would assume developing an ability to digest a newly invented material would give you a distinct edge over any competition in regard to food sources.

As far as good questions, I would find something that puts his theology on the defensive. These people are so used to attacking evolution that it takes them off guard when they have to defend creationism. For instance, "If the Earth isn't billions of years old, why did god make it appear that way? Why would god deceive his children like that?" You know, something along those lines.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/02/2005 22:11:02
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 11/02/2005 :  23:35:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
Was Noah's flood local or world-wide?
If the flood was world-wide, how can he explain different species in different strata?
If answer in sorting through hydro-something, then mention that it's not the size of an animal that decides in what order it sinks, its the average density, which is the almost the same for practically all living beings, except birds because they have air pockets in their bones. Birds shouldn't be in strata at all, or at least only the top-levels.

If all strata fossilized at the same time, then the K-T Boundary, the Iridium rich strata (that separates Cretaceous and Tertiary Periods) should be at the bottom, because Iridium is a heavy element, and it forms dense minerals with Platina and Osmium (right next to Gold and Mercury in the periodic table).


When did dinosaurs live? Follow up question if OT reference to "the leviatan": That refers to a huge dino, was it a T-Rex or a Brontosaur? Velociraptor wasn't large, in fact, most dinos were small, why aren't any of them mentioned? Pterodactyl could fly but looked as much different from other birds as bats do, yet they aren't mentioned either. Bible says the Bat is a bird, when it's really a mammal.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 11/02/2005 23:36:35
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2005 :  02:21:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Umm, this is an excersize in futility, you understand that, yes? Ok, here's a few...lessee...

Why do whales have foetal hair and, in baleen whales, teeth?

Why do the late Devonian thecodonts such as Dimetrodon have so many mammalian fetures?

Why do manatees and dugongs have toenails?

Why do whales and pythons have pelvic bones when there is nothing for them to support?

Why do birds have nonfunctioning genes for developing teeth and horses genes for more toes?

Why, when you take away the feathers, does the skeleton of Archaeopteryx look exactly like a reptile's and nothing like a bird's?

Why is the human spine better suited to a quadraped and why are we the only biped on earth to have such a poor arraingment?

Wby do non-feeding flatworms and the adult phase of nonfeeding insects have mouth parts?

And so forth.

Of course, a study of Talk Origins will be of great benefit.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2005 :  06:25:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Horse evolution:

Hyracoterium (also known as Eohippus) - 40 cm, four toes touching the ground. Forest environment, soft ground. It had a fifth toe, a 'thumb-toe', that didn't touch the ground.

Mesohippus - 60 cm, three toes touching the ground; the fourth shrank up. Environment is starting to change, drying up, plain predators moving in; the 'horse' needs to be faster to survive, thus evolves lenghty legs and better support for hard ground.

Merychippus - 1 m, three toes; fourth is vestigial, first and third are regressing and don't touch the ground anymore. Environment is still changing.

Pliohippus - 1.25 m, one toe - first, third and fourth all regressed. First and third are vestigial. The fourth has become what we call 'chestnut'.

Equus caballus (przewalskii?) ('modern horse', Przewalskii/Tarpan-like) - 1.60 m, only one, hard toe. Fast, strong and well adapted to life in the steppes and plains. Not to mention, my favorite animal

Or, detailed-and-well-explained, here: evolution of the horse.

Edit: spelt Merychippus wrong.
Edit 2: it's nice to mention that sometimes foals are born with three hooved toes.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
Edited by - Siberia on 11/03/2005 06:27:51
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2005 :  08:26:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Ok, let's see if we can jack this goober up a little...

If Neandertal man is a modern human with rickets as has been claimed, why does this disease show not up in contempory Cro Magnons, who had the same diet and living conditions. Further, how come they have different tool kits, the Neandertal's being less refined?

Flores Man has been said have been a modern pigmy but with microcephalus. There is evidence of nine individuals found at the discovery site. Given that this disease is incapaciting even for survivors, is it likely that all nine suffered it? If more fossils are found with the same condition, will the same conjecture hold?

The Touami skull, found in Chad, has been radiometricly dated to between 5 and 7 million years old. It has features consistent with both hominids and apes. Is it misdated? If so, remembering that no species can survive without a population, how does such a creature fit into the Book of Genesis? Is it a mere anomoly, and what reference do you have for that claim?

Back to his topics, more or less:

If abiogenesis was verifiably demonstrated in the lab and observed in the field, would that negate the Garden of Eden flim-flam story in the Book of Genesis? If not, why?

Pandas have a modified wrist bone that acts as a sort of ridged thumb in grasping the bamboo they feed on. If evolution did not create this rather clumsy solution, why then did God not do a more effective job of it?

Haeckle's embryos have long since been discredited by scientists as wishful dreaming at best and downright dishonest at worst.



Why then are they so often being referenced by creationists today, and why not the work of Haeckle's comtempories?

In your examples on irreductable complexity, you omited to explain why, with vast amounts time available, they are irreductable. This reduces your argument to one from increduality. Please elaborate with reference.

I'm startin' to wish I could attend.....




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 11/03/2005 08:38:44
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astropin
SFN Regular

USA
970 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2005 :  10:59:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send astropin a Private Message
Wouldn't this guy have a better time in a Junior High. I would think college kids will tear him a new one....not that it will change his mind.

I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.

You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.

Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.

Infinitus est numerus stultorum
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2005 :  11:09:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
FYI, do not use anything on the feathered dinosaur, it was shown in the last few weeks that the feather like patterens in the fossils may indeed be skin which has sagged around the bones and not in fact feathers. He may be on top of that fact. The bone structure similarity arguement will work much better.

Also on the hobbits bones were dated* from a span of 80,000 years to eliminate the diseased family idea.

* be sure to have info on the different dating methods so you can thwart the RCD isnt accurate arguement.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2005 :  12:22:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

FYI, do not use anything on the feathered dinosaur, it was shown in the last few weeks that the feather like patterens in the fossils may indeed be skin which has sagged around the bones and not in fact feathers. He may be on top of that fact. The bone structure similarity arguement will work much better.

Also on the hobbits bones were dated* from a span of 80,000 years to eliminate the diseased family idea.

* be sure to have info on the different dating methods so you can thwart the RCD isnt accurate arguement.

Hadn't seen that, BigPapa -- gotta link?

But there are so many of them! It seems that feathered fossils are coming out of China in flocks! Could all of those 'feathers' be merely folds of skin?

Well, 'flocks' is a bit of a streach, but there have been quite a few discovered and probably more that haven't been made public yet due to classificatio.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2005 :  12:30:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
Three things come to mind.

1. How the speaker defines evidence?
2. How does a 1700 year old collection of poorly edited little books constitute evidence?
3. Why are you still using the .... argument which has been refuted years ago? Are you unaware of this or is it Ok to lie and mislead your audience in the name of Jesus?

Then again maybe 2 and 3 wouldn't be good questions to ask considering how most of the audience will be members of the choir.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2005 :  13:14:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/jissue/112126721
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-10/jws-dfd100405.php


"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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llDayo
New Member

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2005 :  13:25:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send llDayo a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Haeckle's embryos have long since been discredited by [i]scientists as wishful dreaming at best and downright dishonest at worst.


To expand on that you could also ask for examples of creationists discrediting ideas that are similar, not where they've "poked holes" in evolutionary theory but where they convincingly disproved a claim made by scientists. Then watch him try to dance around the question
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2005 :  13:27:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
He'll do a six hour monologue on Pilt-down if you do that.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2005 :  14:09:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Thanks, BigPapa. Couldn't get into the first link due to memberhip hassles, but it was probably pretty much the same as the second -- the researchers names were the same, anyhow.

I found it very interesting even though no firm conclusion seems to have been reached. I love it when scientists disagree. That's what furthers our knowledge the fastest.

Perhaps you're right and Ricky should leave Archaeopteryx alone. There's plenty of other material out there.

quote:
He'll do a six hour monologue on Pilt-down if you do that.
And another three on the Nebraska peccary's tooth.

Say! Why not ask him about the allosarus-eating-man fossil! Word the question carefully and ask it with an earnest and ignorant face that seeks only Godly knowledge, and his answer might be interesting. Hell, in the throes of evangelism, which is what these things are all about anyway, he just might hang himself. YECs have done crazier things trying to bamboozle the public.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2005 :  14:37:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
And while the speaker is answering you could have a recording of "Yakety Sax" playing.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2005 :  14:48:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message
While sickle cell anemia is a good example of evolution that adapts an organism to a certain environment, a creationists retort to this will be predictable: a person who has it is less fit. They can not understand how fitness is relative to the environment in which the organism lives. If you want to use the sickle cell example, then be sure that you have a good counter-argument for this prepared.

Antibiotic resistance is a good example. I remember reading that Staphylococcus aureus probably acquired methicillin resistance by homologous recombination between four different genes. I'll try to do a quick search of the literature to find a paper.

Of course, if they have no good reply to these things, then they WILL reply that this is only examples of micro-evolution- bla, bla, bla....

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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