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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2001 :  20:42:18  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
Inspired by another thread, this one is for talking about propaganda you've seen on the news. My favorite was on CNN about the time we started bombing to help the Northern Alliance and many news agencies were questioning it. The next day CNN led a tour of a school for women run by the NA and interviewed a woman that runs the school. I couldn't help but chuckle. "Oh look, these guys are the exact opposite of what we hate most about the Taliban. How convenient." They could have reported so much to teach us about the NA but that's what they had for us. I'm calling it devious propaganda and awarding it

@tomic

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!

Lisa
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2001 :  22:05:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Lisa a Private Message
Yeah, my skeptical meter sort of went ping ping too. From what I've read, the NA is marginally better than the Taliban, but I don't think they're the answer to that country's problems. I'd love to see Afghanistan returned to its glory days. They had a beautiful culture, and even if the rest of the Islamic world doesn't think so, I think they were beautiful people. In my lifetime? I don't know.
Lisa

If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2001 :  00:59:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
I found this gem at Buzzflash.

http://cryptome.org/alqaida-game.htm

Yes, of course the mainstrame media is putt1ng out propaganda as are the alternant scorces. It's their jobs and they do it by selecting their stories and putting whatever slant thet feel they need on them.

An example: During the last presidential campaign, it appeared to me that one candidate was examined under a microscope while the other got all but a free ride.

"Revloution: The replacement of one form of misrule for another." Ambrose Bierce (The Devil's Dictionary)

f

The more I learn about people, the better I like rattlesnakes.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2001 :  01:28:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Here's another 'xample:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64926-2001Nov8.html

This could go on forever.

The link I posted previosly might be a little off-topic, but it's a chilling read.

f

The more I learn about people, the better I like rattlesnakes.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2001 :  04:38:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Who gets to define "terrorism" and "good" and why is this "admirable?"

Michael Kinsley says:

'Most of us would agree that "terrorism is bad" and "the United States is good" are permissible, even admirable biases.'


Edited by - Gorgo on 11/10/2001 04:49:41
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Trish
SFN Addict

USA
2102 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2001 :  04:48:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Trish a Private Message
G:Who gets to define "terrorism" and "good" and why is this "admirable?"

Author's prerogative?

quote:
Michael Kinsley says:

'Most of us would agree that "terrorism is bad" and "the United States is good" are permissible, even admirable biases.'


Ok. I think the first part of the statement is correct - terrorism is bad. However, the United States can be characterized as the victim of terrorism based on the events of 9/11. To characterize the US as *good* is inaccurate at best. The US is no more good or bad than any other government. (No this is not really relativism, no one/no government is wholly good nor wholly bad, rather it is a sum total of it's parts - both good and bad.) However, to qualify this dichotomy as an admirable stance is arrogant. (Yes Gorgo, I'm actually sort of agreeing with you - probably for different reasons tho.)

It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2001 :  04:52:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
But who gets to define these terms? Anything the U.S. does in the media is "good" albeit sometimes mistaken or even incompetent, but never "evil" and never "terrorism."

quote:


Ok. I think the first part of the statement is correct - terrorism is bad. However, the United States can be characterized as the victim of terrorism based on the events of 9/11. To characterize the US as *good* is inaccurate at best. The US is no more good or bad than any other government. (No this is not really relativism, no one/no government is wholly good nor wholly bad, rather it is a sum total of it's parts - both good and bad.) However, to qualify this dichotomy as an admirable stance is arrogant. (Yes Gorgo, I'm actually sort of agreeing with you - probably for different reasons tho.)





Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2001 :  05:56:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
From the Pamama City News Hearld, Pahama City, FL

This was apparently a briefing, rather than a news story. I'm cut & pasting it because it's well down in the artical. I found it on Buzzflash.

"Also per Hal's order, DO NOT USE wire stories which lead with civilian casualties from the U.S. war on Afghanistan. They should be mentioned further down in the story. If the story needs rewriting to play down the civilian casualties, DO IT. The only exception is if the U.S. hits an orphanage, school or similar facility and kills scores or hundreds of children. See me if there are any special situations."



The more I learn about people, the better I like rattlesnakes.
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Trish
SFN Addict

USA
2102 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2001 :  06:19:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Trish a Private Message
quote:
But who gets to define these terms? Anything the U.S. does in the media is "good" albeit sometimes mistaken or even incompetent, but never "evil" and never "terrorism."


ter·ror·ism (tr-rzm)
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

good (gd)
adj. bet·ter, (btr) best (bst)
1. Being positive or desirable in nature; not bad or poor: a good experience; good news from the hospital.

2.
a. Having the qualities that are desirable or distinguishing in a particular thing: a good exterior paint; a good joke.
b. Serving the desired purpose or end; suitable: Is this a good dress for the party?
3.
a. Not spoiled or ruined: The milk is still good.

b. In excellent condition; sound: a good tooth.
4.
a. Superior to the average; satisfactory: a good student.

b. Used formerly to refer to the U.S. Government grade of meat higher than standard and lower than choice.
5.
a. Of high quality: good books.
b. Discriminating: good taste.

6. Worthy of respect; honorable: ruined the family's good name.
7. Attractive; handsome: good looks.
8. Beneficial to health; salutary: a good night's rest.
9. Competent; skilled: a good machinist.
10. Complete; thorough: a good workout.
11.
a. Reliable; sure: a good investment.
b. Valid or true: a good reason.
c. Genuine; real: a good dollar bill.
12.
a. In effect; operative: a warranty good for two years; a driver's license that is still good.
b. Able to continue in a specified activity: I'm good for another round of golf.
13.
a. Able to pay or contribute: Is she good for the money that you lent her?
b. Able to elicit a specified reaction: He is always good for a laugh.
14.
a. Ample; substantial: a good income.
b. Bountiful: a good table.
15. Full: It is a good mile from here.
16.
a. Pleasant; enjoyable: had a good time at the party.
b. Propitious; favorable: good weather; a good omen.
17.
a. Of moral excellence; upright: a good person.
b. Benevolent; kind: a good soul; a good heart.
c. Loyal; staunch: a good Republican.
18.
a. Well-behaved; obedient: a good child.
b. Socially correct; proper: good manners.
19. Sports.
a. Landing within bounds or within a particular area of a court and therefore in play: The first serve was wide, but the second was good.
b. Passing between the uprights of the goal and therefore scoring, as a field goal in football.
20. Used to form exclamatory phrases expressing surprise or dismay: Good heavens! Good grief!

n.
1.
a. Something that is good.
b. A good, valuable, or useful part or aspect.
2. Welfare; benefit: for the common good.
3. Goodness; virtue: There is much good to be found in people.
4. goods
a. Commodities; wares: frozen goods.
b. Portable personal property.
c. (used with a sing. or pl. verb)Fabric; material.
5. goods Slang. Incriminating information or evidence: tried to get the goods on the crook.

ad·mi·ra·ble (dmr--bl)
adj.
Deserving admiration.

ad·mi·ra·tion (dm-rshn)
n.
1. A feeling of pleasure, wonder, and approval. See Synonyms at regard.
2. An object of wonder and esteem; a marvel.
3. Archaic. Wonder.

Well, those are the definitions. I've already said that the US can neither be called good nor evil in whole, only in part.

quote:
"Also per Hal's order, DO NOT USE wire stories which lead with civilian casualties from the U.S. war on Afghanistan. They should be mentioned further down in the story. If the story needs rewriting to play down the civilian casualties, DO IT. The only exception is if the U.S. hits an orphanage, school or similar facility and kills scores or hundreds of children. See me if there are any special situations."


This is disturbing, however, as pointed out this is in a breifing [for a particular paper?]. I'm wondering if it is just the one paper. I would hate to cast too wide a net without the proof to back it up.

It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2001 :  06:38:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
You should keep in mind that there has been a lot of discussion in the press about it's responsibilities. Some people are going to take that too far and go too far out of their way to make damn sure they don't help the enemy spread propaganda. I'm not sure that that's the way to do it, but it is aparantly one editors take on it.

@tomic

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
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Garrette
SFN Regular

USA
562 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2001 :  07:02:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Garrette a Yahoo! Message Send Garrette a Private Message
C:\TEMP\New Yorker Taliban Report Stirs Denial From Pentagon.htm

My kids still love me.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2001 :  08:40:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Here we come to that word "unlawful" again. By definition, anything the U.S. does is lawful, what it's enemies do is unlawful. What the U.S. does is "defense," what its enemies do is "terrorism."
quote:

ter·ror·ism (tr-rzm)
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.




Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2001 :  08:51:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Don't think this link is going to work G.

quote:

C:\TEMP\New Yorker Taliban Report Stirs Denial From Pentagon.htm




Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens
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Garrette
SFN Regular

USA
562 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2001 :  10:40:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Garrette a Yahoo! Message Send Garrette a Private Message
I'll try again. If this doesn't work, I'll just paste it in.

C:\TEMP\New Yorker Taliban Report Stirs Denial From Pentagon.htm


My kids still love me.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2001 :  10:53:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
I don't think it'll be easy to access a file on your hard drive.

quote:

I'll try again. If this doesn't work, I'll just paste it in.

C:\TEMP\New Yorker Taliban Report Stirs Denial From Pentagon.htm


My kids still love me.



Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens
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Garrette
SFN Regular

USA
562 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2001 :  11:25:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Garrette a Yahoo! Message Send Garrette a Private Message


quote:
Washington Times
November 6, 2001
Pg. 11

New Yorker Taliban Report Stirs Denial From Pentagon

By Jennifer Harper, The Washington Times

The New Yorker magazine is standing by its man. Writer Seymour Hersh claims this week that ferocious Taliban troops attacked the U.S. Army's elite Delta Force on Oct. 20, wounding a dozen troops and prompting a hasty retreat. He also builds the case that the special-operations unit is plagued with discord and internal problems.

"The facts have been checked and we stand by our story and the author," said New Yorker spokeswoman Perri Dorset.

But the Pentagon says it's all hooey.

"The reports I've seen just don't support that article's supposition," Rear Adm. John Stufflebeem, deputy director of operations for the Joint Staff, said yesterday. Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Richard B. Myers agreed on NBC Sunday.

The New Yorker story "portrays that we ran into some stiff resistance. That's simply not true. There was no resistance. The Taliban were in complete disarray," Gen. Myers said, adding that "every soldier who came back from that particular raid is back on duty today — none of them were injured by the Taliban."

He went on to deny there was a firefight, problems within the unit, lack of planning or a failed mission. "It went, from my view, flawlessly," Gen. Myers said.

There will be other pieces, most likely. Mr. Hersh's skills were honed in the "gotcha" investigative media dynasty that eventually spawned Watergate. Once described by Salon as "the hardest-working muckraker in journalism," he made a startling press debut in 1969 by uncovering the My Lai massacre. Eight provocative books and countless articles followed, dishing on Marilyn Monroe, the Kennedys, Henry Kissinger and former U.S. anti-drug chief Barry McCaffrey, among others.

This week's New Yorker story is what armchair commandos might call a "thumping" good read. In a post-September 11 world, Mr. Hersh employs his standard techniques in a media marketplace that finds journalists struggling to balance the nation's security with First Amendment rights.

This week's New Yorker piece is classic Hersh: rife with gritty details, acronyms, cuss words, historic background and authentic quotations from Pentagon briefings and current press reports. All 16 sources in the story, however, are unnamed. Mr. Hersh quotes "one general," "a senior military officer," "one Delta Force soldier" and other generic personnel who recount events or offer the insider's skinny on strife within the unit.

"New Yorker readers may be at the mercy of a story which is loose in its sources and less compelling in its authenticity," notes Bob Steele of the Poynter Institute, a Florida-based media studies group. "Credibility can suffer. Writers who use anonymous sources must tell more about the process of their reporting and explain the credibility and connection of the source."

While he cautions journalists against flippant use of anonymous sources, Mr. Steele adds that "some stories are so important that they warrant careful and sparing use of anonymous sources to get information to the public."

Mr. Hersh does lend one source some context, quoting a "high-ranking officer who has access to debriefing reports" offering an opinion on Taliban weapons, official procedures and the failure of the Delta team to leave an undercover team behind.

This is Mr. Hersh's fourth story covering the war on terrorism. The earlier reports told readers about poor intelligence gathering, an unstable Saudi Arabian government and the perils of the Pakistani nuclear arsenal. The timely reports are peopled with a mix of nameless sources; they connect the conspiratory dots with brusque finesse.

"We're going to see a lot more use of unnamed sources as the war progresses. Information has been hard to come by for many journalists," said Lorie Robertson, editor of the American Journalism Review.

"There's no clear-cut answer on what's right here, other than to advise to stay skeptical. They should compare Hersh and Pentagon and try to make a reasonable judgement about viability. They should take away the information, and then just move on. There's a lot more to come."



"We now return you to your regularly scheduled brain."

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