Skeptic Friends Network

Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
Home | Forums | Active Topics | Active Polls | Register | FAQ | Contact Us  
  Connect: Chat | SFN Messenger | Buddy List | Members
Personalize: Profile | My Page | Forum Bookmarks  
 All Forums
 Our Skeptic Forums
 Conspiracy Theories
 creation/evolution
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 16

Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2005 :  12:06:22  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
Creation/Evolution

Here is reality. This is not science vs. religion. This is the science of one worldview or religion vs. the science of another worldview or religion. Evolution is not science but rather philosophical theory. It contains no evidence. Where are all the transitional fossils that we should find if decent through modification beginning at the cellular level taking place over millions or billions of years really took place? We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher if in fact this took place over millions of years yet we have none in our natural history museums?!?! National Geographies proves that TF's or ML's have yet to be found that demonstrate macro evolution. A few years back NG purchased a fossil and plastered it all over their mag as "Archaeorapter" the first link between birds and raptors. Of coarse we all know the it turned out to be a fake demonstrating that evolutionists are still looking for that first ML or TF that can demonstrate macro evolution. What? 150 years past Charlie Darwin and we are still looking for the first missing link or transitional fossil??? If macro evolution where a fact of science we should have unearthed millions of TF's or ML's by now but NG demonstrates that the evolutionary community is still trying to present their first one. This alone should end the debate as most evolutionist present the fossil record as their greatest "fact of science" yet the fossil record does not bare out Charlie D. and in fact he acknowledged that if the massive amounts of TF's that would be required for macro evolution were not unearthed then his theory he freely admitted would be dead. FYI I have already challenged SFN's own Tommy and Dawn Huxley to find me a TF or ML display at any of our fine and accredited natural history museum throughout our great nation If macro evolution were a fact we should have millions and I asked Tommy and Dawn to direct me to one! I asked them not to bother linking me to talk origins as that is the typical response I get from most evolutionist is to link me to their propaganda machine. I wanted a missing link or transitional fossil display that I could go and visit at one of our many natural history museums. We should have millions of these fossils yet Tommy and Dawn failed to guide me to a single display?!?!?! And this is the evolutionist's best demonstration of their philosophy? Tommy could not even point me to the nearest TF display! How sad, but yet this is considered "science" by evolutionist's because they say it is science. (sigh)

I next quizzed Tommy about death. Why do we die? What happens after death? etc... Tommy went on to explain that there is a "reason" for death something about the overpopulation of planet and reproduction and then said our bodies were "programmed" like a vast computer network and in that "program" were instructions on death. I had to stop Tommy and remind him that natural selection cannot and does not "reason". There is no "reason" in CD's world. Blind random mutations do not and can not reason so the evolutionary philosophy is void of reason. I next reminded Tommy that you in fact need a PROGRAMMER before you can have a "program". Blind and random chance creates dis-information NOT vast complex codes and programs! PROGRAMMERS do that! So if you can give me an example of blind random chance creating vast amounts of complex information please share this because Tommy could not. So in fact Tommy's remarks were made from ignorance as he tried to convince me that blind random mutations could "program" for a "reason". He was in fact trying to dump an oxy moron on me. Blind random chance programming for a reason, yeah right.

Next I discussed origins where Tommy went on some little tirade about how he refuses to go back past CD's "warm little pond" theory. See either the universe and physical matter are infinite or they had a point in time when they began to exist. No one that I know of even debates that the universe i.e. physical matter are eternal but rather through the laws of thermodynamics we understand that all effects have a cause and the greater and more complex the effect the more complex the first cause. So if the universe and PM had a point in time where they began to exist what was the first cause? When I address this question to skeptics/atheistic/agnostic supporters I get one of two responses.

1. That is cosmology and I am only interest in evolution, which was Tommy's answer. In other words he has no idea how PM can appear from nothing without a first cause nor do we care. "We can discuss events going back to Charlie's "warm little pond" but after that we refuse to discuss any further." Completely ducking the question but for good reason.

2. They will try to explain the universe and PM by saying you had these chemicals just floating around and through sheer luck and the right random process taking place physical matter and the universe somehow appeared. The problem they have and usually fail to even realize is that they just used physical matter already in existence to explain the origin of PM. In order to explain the origin of the universe minus a deity for a first cause the evolutionist/atheist/agnostic must start with nothing and then explain how PM and the universe appeared. You can not use PM already in existence to explain the origin of physical matter. Yet another oxy moron.


I could go on but for times sake I will not. So you can plainly see that evolution in fact is not science but rather philosophical theory. Look, I am a realist and have been on many skeptic/atheistic/agnostic websites. I do not hold great hope that my few paragraphs on the subject of creation/evolution are going to covert some diehard skeptics on their own message board. What I have clearly demonstrated is that when carefully examined by the facts evolution is simply philosophy and NOT science. Therefor your battle cry of "science vs. religion" when describing the creation/evolution debate is lame and void of all reality. See I accept the fact that the creation/evolution debate has went on in this country for a long time now and will continue to go on for a long time to come. There are vast amounts of supporters on each side of the fence. What I can't except is the hypocrisy that flows from the evolution camp and please allow me to explain. See the evolution camp under the guise of science will fight to the bitter end to not allow the creation theory to even be mentioned in the public school. "They have no right to force their philosophy/worldview/religion which is in direct opposition to my beliefs down my kids throat therefore over riding my parental rights to teach my kid my personal worldview." Yet in the vary next breath they will chastise anyone who says that the same should apply for evolutionary philosophy. See it is ok for the state to take my tax money and ram evolutionary philosophy and worldviews down my kids throat at public schools because evolutionary philosophy is what evolutionists believe and evangelizes to the infedels with but I don't believe it. Therefor I take great offence at the public schools using my tax money to teach my kid a bankrupt philosophy that I completely dismiss as theory. Just as the skeptic has a cow when the mere mention of their theory/worldview/religion being challenged in the public school causes them to rally their faithful and not let their kids be taught a worldview by the government which in fact is a violation of church and state. The government/public schools has no right to teach my kid philosophy with my money but they do and the skeptics who's battle cry is "no state sponsored religion" turn around and force their state sponsored religion/worldview/philosophy down my kids throat all day long under the guise of science. Hypocrisy!!!!!!!!

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2005 :  12:10:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
Geez, where to begin with this one?

Why don't you try again once you have a very basic understanding of what evolution theory actually is, since it is quite evident you have no idea what you are talking about. Here is one link for starters:

http://www.talkorigins.org

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Go to Top of Page

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2005 :  12:23:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
A Kent Hovind fan, I see. You believe that a cat should give birth to an aardvark to demonstrate the theory of Evolution. Here we go again....

This link is pretty much self-explanatory.
quote:
Clifford A. Cuffey


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mammal-Like Reptiles

As previously stated, a succession of transitional fossils exists that link reptiles (Class Reptilia) and mammals (Class Mammalia). These particular reptiles are classifie as Subclass Synapsida. Presently, this is the best example of th e transformation of one major higher taxon into another. The morphologic changes that took place are well documented by fossils, beginning with animals essentially 100% reptilian and resulting in animals essentially 100% mammalian. Therefore, I have chosen this as the example to summarize in more detail (Table 1, Fig. 1).





Skulls and jaws of synapsid reptiles and mammals; left column side view of skull; center column top view of skull; right column side view of lower jaw. Hylonomus modified from Carroll (1964, Figs. 2,6; 1968, Figs. 10-2, 10-5; note that Hylonomus is a protorothyrod, not a synapsid). Archaeothyris modified from Reisz (1972, Fig. 2). Haptodus modified from Currie (1977, Figs, 1a, 1b; 1979, Figs. 5a, 5b). Sphenacodo n modified from Romer & Price (1940, Fig. 4f), Allin (1975, p. 3, Fig. 16);note: Dimetrodon substituted for top view; modified from Romer & Price, 1940, pl. 10. Biarmosuchus modified from Ivakhnenko et al. (1997, pl. 65, Figs. 1a, 1B, 2); Alin & Hopson (1992; Fig. 28.4c); Sigogneau & Tchudinov (1972, Figs. 1, 15). Eoarctops modified from Broom (1932, Fig. 35a); Boonstra (1969, Fig. 18). Pristerognathus modified from Broom (1932, Figs 17a, b,c); Boonstra (1963, Fig. 5d). Procynosuchus modified from Allin & Hopson (1992, Fig. 28.4e); Hopson (1987, Fig. 5c); Brink (1963, Fig. 10a); Kemp (1979, Fig. 1); Allin (1975, p. 3, Fig. 14). Thrinaxodon modified from Allin & Hopson (1992, Fig. 28.4f);Parrington (1946, Fig. 1); Allin (1975, p. 3, Fig. 13). Probainognathus modified from Allin & Hopson (1992, Fig. 28.4g); Romer (1970, Fig. 1); Allin (1975, p. 3, Fig. 12). Morga nucodon modified from Kermack, Mussett, & Rigney (1981, Figs. 95, 99a; 1973, Fig. 7a); Allin (1975, p. 3, Fig. 11). Asioryctes modified from Carroll (1988, Fig. 20-3b). Abbreviations: ag = angular; ar = articular; cp = coronoid process; d = dentary; f = lateral temporal fenestra; j = jugal; mm = attachment site for mammalian jaw muscles; o = eye socket; po = post orbital; q = quadrate; rl = reflected lamina; sq = squamosal; ty = tympanic.

TAXONOMY LATERAL TEMPORAL FENESTRA LOWER JAW DENTARY TEETH LOWER JAW: POST- DENTARY BONES MIDDLE EAR & JAW ARTICULATION
M: Early Placental mammals
Asioryctes
Upper Cretaceous Merged with eye socket; cheek arch bowed out laterally 100% of jaw length is the den- tary; condylar process in contact with squamosal Fully differentiated teeth; incisors, canines, premolars; one tooth replacement No post-dentary bones 3 middle ear bones (stapes, incus, malleus) + tympanic; squamosal-dentary jaw joint
L: "Pantothere" mammals
Amphitherium
Middle/Upper Jurassic X 100% of jaw length is the den- tary; condylar process contacts squamosal Fully differentiated teeth; incisors, canines, premolars; one tooth replacement Post-dentary bones migrated to middle ear Probably 3 middle ear bones (stapes, incus, malleus) + tympanic; squamosal-dentary jaw joint
K: Morganucodontid mammals
Morganucodon Upper Triassic & Lower Jurassic Merged with eye socket; cheeck arch bowed out laterally 100% of jaw length is the den- tary; condylar process expanded posteriorly to make contact with squamosal Fully differentiated teeth; incisors, canines, premolars; one tooth replacement 20% of jaw length; reflected lamina decreased to narrow ribbon-like horseshoe Stapes extends from inner ear capsule to quadrate; quadrate tiny; both quadrate-articular and squamosal-dentary jaw joints
J: Chiniquodontid cynodonts
Probainognathus
Middle Triassic Much larger than eye socket; 40- 45% of skull length; expanded posterioirly, medially, & laterally; midline of skull narrow sagittal crest; chek arch bowed out laterally 95% of jaw length is the dentary; large coronoid process expanded posteriorly; condylar process expanded posteriorly Large single canine; cheek teeth multicusped; tooth replacement reduced 20% of jaw length; angular notch widened ventrally; width of main part of angular decreased; reflec - ted lamina decreased to narrow ribbon-like horseshoe Stapes extends from inner ear capsule to quadrate; quadrate tiny; quadrate-articular joint
I:Galesaurid cynodonts
Thrinaxodon
Lower Triassic Much larger than eye socket; 40% of skull length; expanded pos- terioirly, medially, & laterally; midline of skull narrow sagittal crest; chek arch bowed out laterally 85% of jaw length is the dentary; large coronoid process expanded to top of eye socket and pos- teriorly; jaw muscles attached to most of coronoid process Large single canine; cheek teeth multicusped; tooth replacement reduced 25% of jaw length; angular notch widened ventrally; width of reflec- ted lamina decreased; width of main part of angular decreased Stapes extends from inner ear capsule to quadrate; quadrate small; quadrate-articular jaw joint
H: Procynosuchid cynodonts
Procynosuchus
upper Upper Permian Much larger than eye socket; 40% of skull length; expanded pos- terioirly, medially, & laterally; midline of skull narrow sagittal crest; chek arch bowed out laterally 75-80% of jaw length is the den- tary; coronoid process expanded to near top of eye socket and posteriorly; jaw muscles attached to dorsal part of coronoid process Large single canine; cheek teeth multicusped 30% of jaw length; angular notch widened ventrally; width of reflected lamina decreased Stapes extends from inner ear capsule to quadrate; quadrate small; quadrate-articular jaw joint
G: Early Therocephalians
Pristerognathus
lower Upper Permian Larger than eye socket; expanded posteriorly and medially; 30% of skull length 75-80% of jaw length is the den- tary; posterior end of dentary expanded posteriorly and dorsally into narrow blade-like coronoid process; rises to middle of eye socket Large single canine; other teeth simple cones. 35% of jaw length; angular notch deepened into a cleft; reflected lamina large, broad, blade-like Stapes extends from inner ear capsule to quadrate; quadrate small; quadrate-articular jaw joint
F: Early Gorgonopsians
Eoarctops
lower Upper Permian Slightly larger than eye socket; expanded posteriorly and medially (minimal); 20-25% of skull length 65-75% of jaw length is the den- tary; posterior end of dentary slightly expanded posteriorly and dorsally as incipient coronoid process Large single canine; other teeth simple cones. 40% of jaw length; angular notch deepened into a cleft; reflected lamina large, broad, blade-like Stapes extends from inner ear capsule to quadrate; quadrate- articular jaw joint
E: Eotitanosuchians
Sphenacodon
Lower Permian Small; slightly smaller than eye socket; slightly expanded posteriorly and medially 65-75% of jaw length is the den- tary; posterodorsal edge rises broadly but slightly above tooth row Large single canine; other teeth simple cones. 40% of jaw length; angular notch deepened into a cleft; reflected lamina large, broad, blade-like Stapes extends from inner ear capsule to quadrate; quadrate- articular jaw joint
D: Late sphenacodont

"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Go to Top of Page

Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2005 :  12:26:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

Geez, where to begin with this one?

Why don't you try again once you have a very basic understanding of what evolution theory actually is, since it is quite evident you have no idea what you are talking about. Here is one link for starters:

http://www.talkorigins.org



Why don't you explain it for me rather then pawn me off to the TO propaganda page. Typical response. (sigh)

1. Where are all the missing links stored that CD predicted we would find?

2. How can blind random mutations "program" for a "reason" like Tommy want's all to believe.

3. Is the universe eternal or did have a point in time where it began to exist?

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Go to Top of Page

Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2005 :  12:28:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

A Kent Hovind fan, I see. You believe that a cat should give birth to an aardvark to demonstrate the theory of Evolution. Here we go again....

This link is pretty much self-explanatory.
quote:
Clifford A. Cuffey


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mammal-Like Reptiles

As previously stated, a succession of transitional fossils exists that link reptiles (Class Reptilia) and mammals (Class Mammalia). These particular reptiles are classifie as Subclass Synapsida. Presently, this is the best example of th e transformation of one major higher taxon into another. The morphologic changes that took place are well documented by fossils, beginning with animals essentially 100% reptilian and resulting in animals essentially 100% mammalian. Therefore, I have chosen this as the example to summarize in more detail (Table 1, Fig. 1).





Skulls and jaws of synapsid reptiles and mammals; left column side view of skull; center column top view of skull; right column side view of lower jaw. Hylonomus modified from Carroll (1964, Figs. 2,6; 1968, Figs. 10-2, 10-5; note that Hylonomus is a protorothyrod, not a synapsid). Archaeothyris modified from Reisz (1972, Fig. 2). Haptodus modified from Currie (1977, Figs, 1a, 1b; 1979, Figs. 5a, 5b). Sphenacodo n modified from Romer & Price (1940, Fig. 4f), Allin (1975, p. 3, Fig. 16);note: Dimetrodon substituted for top view; modified from Romer & Price, 1940, pl. 10. Biarmosuchus modified from Ivakhnenko et al. (1997, pl. 65, Figs. 1a, 1B, 2); Alin & Hopson (1992; Fig. 28.4c); Sigogneau & Tchudinov (1972, Figs. 1, 15). Eoarctops modified from Broom (1932, Fig. 35a); Boonstra (1969, Fig. 18). Pristerognathus modified from Broom (1932, Figs 17a, b,c); Boonstra (1963, Fig. 5d). Procynosuchus modified from Allin & Hopson (1992, Fig. 28.4e); Hopson (1987, Fig. 5c); Brink (1963, Fig. 10a); Kemp (1979, Fig. 1); Allin (1975, p. 3, Fig. 14). Thrinaxodon modified from Allin & Hopson (1992, Fig. 28.4f);Parrington (1946, Fig. 1); Allin (1975, p. 3, Fig. 13). Probainognathus modified from Allin & Hopson (1992, Fig. 28.4g); Romer (1970, Fig. 1); Allin (1975, p. 3, Fig. 12). Morga nucodon modified from Kermack, Mussett, & Rigney (1981, Figs. 95, 99a; 1973, Fig. 7a); Allin (1975, p. 3, Fig. 11). Asioryctes modified from Carroll (1988, Fig. 20-3b). Abbreviations: ag = angular; ar = articular; cp = coronoid process; d = dentary; f = lateral temporal fenestra; j = jugal; mm = attachment site for mammalian jaw muscles; o = eye socket; po = post orbital; q = quadrate; rl = reflected lamina; sq = squamosal; ty = tympanic.

TAXONOMY LATERAL TEMPORAL FENESTRA LOWER JAW DENTARY TEETH LOWER JAW: POST- DENTARY BONES MIDDLE EAR & JAW ARTICULATION
M: Early Placental mammals
Asioryctes
Upper Cretaceous Merged with eye socket; cheek arch bowed out laterally 100% of jaw length is the den- tary; condylar process in contact with squamosal Fully differentiated teeth; incisors, canines, premolars; one tooth replacement No post-dentary bones 3 middle ear bones (stapes, incus, malleus) + tympanic; squamosal-dentary jaw joint
L: "Pantothere" mammals
Amphitherium
Middle/Upper Jurassic X 100% of jaw length is the den- tary; condylar process contacts squamosal Fully differentiated teeth; incisors, canines, premolars; one tooth replacement Post-dentary bones migrated to middle ear Probably 3 middle ear bones (stapes, incus, malleus) + tympanic; squamosal-dentary jaw joint
K: Morganucodontid mammals
Morganucodon Upper Triassic & Lower Jurassic Merged with eye socket; cheeck arch bowed out laterally 100% of jaw length is the den- tary; condylar process expanded posteriorly to make contact with squamosal Fully differentiated teeth; incisors, canines, premolars; one tooth replacement 20% of jaw length; reflected lamina decreased to narrow ribbon-like horseshoe Stapes extends from inner ear capsule to quadrate; quadrate tiny; both quadrate-articular and squamosal-dentary jaw joints
J: Chiniquodontid cynodonts
Probainognathus
Middle Triassic Much larger than eye socket; 40- 45% of skull length; expanded posterioirly, medially, & laterally; midline of skull narrow sagittal crest; chek arch bowed out laterally 95% of jaw length is the dentary; large coronoid process expanded posteriorly; condylar process expanded posteriorly Large single canine; cheek teeth multicusped; tooth replacement reduced 20% of jaw length; angular notch widened ventrally; width of main part of angular decreased; reflec - ted lamina decreased to narrow ribbon-like horseshoe Stapes extends from inner ear capsule to quadrate; quadrate tiny; quadrate-articular joint
I:Galesaurid cynodonts
Thrinaxodon
Lower Triassic Much larger than eye socket; 40% of skull length; expanded pos- terioirly, medially, & laterally; midline of skull narrow sagittal crest; chek arch bowed out laterally 85% of jaw length is the dentary; large coronoid process expanded to top of eye socket and pos- teriorly; jaw muscles attached to most of coronoid process Large single canine; cheek teeth multicusped; tooth replacement reduced 25% of jaw length; angular notch widened ventrally; width of reflec- ted lamina decreased; width of main part of angular decreased Stapes extends from inner ear capsule to quadrate; quadrate small; quadrate-articular jaw joint
H: Procynosuchid cynodonts
Procynosuchus
upper Upper Permian Much larger than eye socket; 40% of skull length; expanded pos- terioirly, medially, & laterally; midline of skull narrow sagittal crest; chek arch bowed out laterally 75-80% of jaw length is the den- tary; coronoid process expanded to near top of eye socket and posteriorly; jaw muscles attached to dorsal part of coronoid process Large single canine; cheek teeth multicusped 30% of jaw length; angular notch widened ventrally; width of reflected lamina decreased Stapes extends from inner ear capsule to quadrate; quadrate small; quadrate-articular jaw joint
G: Early Therocephalians
Pristerognathus
lower Upper Permian Larger than eye socket; expanded posteriorly and medially; 30% of skull length 75-80% of jaw length is the den- tary; posterior end of dentary expanded posteriorly and dorsally into narrow blade-like coronoid process; rises to middle of eye socket Large single canine; other teeth simple cones. 35% of jaw length; angular notch deepened into a cleft; reflected lamina large, broad, blade-like Stapes extends from inner ear capsule to quadrate; quadrate small; quadrate-articular jaw joint
F: Early Gorgonopsians
Eoarctops
lower Upper Permian Slightly larger than eye socket; expanded posteriorly and medially (minimal); 20-25% of skull length 65-75% of jaw length is the den- tary; posterior end of dentary slightly expanded posteriorly and dorsally as incipient coronoid process Large single canine; other teeth simple cones. 40% of jaw length; angular notch deepened into a cleft; reflected lamina large, broad, blade-like Stapes extends from inner ear capsule to quadrate; quadrate- articular jaw joint
E: Eotitanosuchians
Sphenacodon
Lower Permian Small; slightly smaller than eye socket; slightly expanded posteriorly and medially 65-75% of jaw length is the den- tary; posterodorsal edge rises broadly but slightly above tooth row Large single canine; other teeth simple cones. 40% of jaw length; angular notch deepened

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Go to Top of Page

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2005 :  12:34:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
1. What CD?

2. Read the link I have provided -- I am not your instructor -- which, incidently, has nothing to do with Talk Origins. I don't need TO to back up my statements, excellent resource that it is.

3. I don't know, and no one else does, either.

Did you come here to discuss, or to rant?


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 12/21/2005 12:37:31
Go to Top of Page

pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2005 :  12:35:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Why don't you explain it for me rather then pawn me off to the TO propaganda page. Typical response. (sigh)

1. Where are all the missing links stored that CD predicted we would find?

2. How can blind random mutations "program" for a "reason" like Tommy want's all to believe.

3. Is the universe eternal or did have a point in time where it began to exist?



I'm not your teacher. Go learn for yourself.

3) is irrelevant to evolution theory.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Go to Top of Page

Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2005 :  12:37:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
[

Welcome to SFN, Bill!

[/quote]

Thanks. but you failed to address my point. We can debate evolution/creation all day long and little would change for both us. I have already done this with Tommy. My question/point was and remains why do evolutionist's feel they have a right to force their philosophy down my kids throat at school when other worldviews are not given the time of day? Either all philosophical worldviews should presented or none. Why is evolution philosophy the only religion/worldview allowed presented to kids by the government? In fact making it a state sponsored religion worldview. The precise same thing the evolutionary camp cries about. Seems pretty much like hypocrisy to me...

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Go to Top of Page

pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2005 :  12:42:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
Take your kids and homeschool them, or better yet put them in a church school.

ToE is a sound scientific theory (and that is an understatement). Because you won't acknowledge that means nothing. You calling it a religion does not mean it is one. It may help you sleep better (or worse I guess), but it isn't a religion. It doesn't care about the existance (or non) of a god or gods. If it threatens your myopic worldview of fundamentalist (insert appropriate religion here) blah blah, tough. Sink or swim.


by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Edited by - pleco on 12/21/2005 12:46:53
Go to Top of Page

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2005 :  12:48:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

[

Welcome to SFN, Bill!




quote:
Thanks. but you failed to address my point. We can debate evolution/creation all day long and little would change for both us. I have already done this with Tommy. My question/point was and remains why do evolutionist's feel they have a right to force their philosophy down my kids throat at school when other worldviews are not given the time of day? Either all philosophical worldviews should presented or none. Why is evolution philosophy the only religion/worldview allowed presented to kids by the government? In fact making it a state sponsored religion worldview. The precise same thing the evolutionary camp cries about. Seems pretty much like hypocrisy to me...


You are calming down, I see. Good.

First, a scientific theory is a set of hypothisis so well backed by physical evidence that for all pratical purposes, it is a stone fact. The only theoretical part of it is exactly in what ways it all works. These theories are left open-ended because there is always a slight chance something will come along to refute it.

the theory of evolution is no more a philosophy than the theory of gravity. It must be taught is schools because, as has been said, nothing in biology makes sense without it.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Go to Top of Page

Fripp
SFN Regular

USA
727 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2005 :  12:53:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Fripp a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
My question/point was and remains why do evolutionist's feel they have a right to force their philosophy down my kids throat at school when other worldviews are not given the time of day? Either all philosophical worldviews should presented or none. Why is evolution philosophy the only religion/worldview allowed presented to kids by the government?


Sorry but you have a sadly naive, mistaken, and I suspect, an inflexible view of evolution which is completely false. Evolution is not "forced down your kid's throat" anymore than a heliocentric view of the solar system is forced down his/her throat. A heliocentric solar system is FACT. Gravity is a FACT, not "Intelligent Sucking". Earth as a sphere is a FACT vs. a Flat Earth.

And (hold on to your seat) evolution is a FACT. Evolution is NOT a philosophy. Evolution is NOT a religion. For you to think it as either, speaks volumes of your ignorance.

But if you want to stunt your child's education, take him or her out of school. Heck, Einstein's general theory of relativity devastates creationism much more than Darwin ever did.

Is your faith and belief in God so fragile, so feeble, so tenuous, that exposure to alternative ideas threatens it? What a sad commentary on the strength of your beliefs.

"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"

"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"

"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?"
Go to Top of Page

Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2005 :  12:56:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

1. What CD?
. What CD?
(bill)
Charlie D. could not understand why TF or ML was not unearthed in his day. He fully confessed that if TF and ML were not discovered in the future that his theory would be bankrupt. 150 and some odd years later and National Geographic was trying to pawn off on us the first ML between bird and raptor. What! Charlie said we should find these in abundance! Where are they?

2. Read the link I have provided -- I am not your instructor -- which, incidently, has nothing to do with Talk Origins. I don't need TO to back up my statements, excellent resource that it is.
(Bill)
No. I would like to here you explain (if you can) how random mutations "program" with "reason". This should be good...

3. I don't know, and no one else does, either.
(Bill)
So you at least entertain the thought that the matter is eternal? Interesting... And if is not you believe the first cause might be what?????


Did you come here to discuss, or to rant?

I came here for some answers to the obvious fact that evolution is a religon or worlview so why do skeptics feel they have a right to rame this view down my kids throat with my tax money?




"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Go to Top of Page

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2005 :  13:05:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
I came here for some answers to the obvious fact that evolution is a religon or worlview so why do skeptics feel they have a right to rame this view down my kids throat with my tax money?


How is it obvious that Evolution is a faith; a philosophy? And what would you replace it with?




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Go to Top of Page

Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2005 :  13:08:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

Take your kids and homeschool them, or better yet put them in a church school.

(bill)

Why should I? Take your religon out of the public school!

ToE is a sound scientific theory (and that is an understatement).
(Bill)
Says you and your faithfull. Where are all the ML then?

Because you won't acknowledge that means nothing.
(bill)your rant that this is science means zero.

You calling it a religion does not mean it is one.
(bill) you calling your religon "science" does not make it a science.

It may help you sleep better (or worse I guess), but it isn't a religion.
(bill) umm, Webster says it is a religon.


It doesn't care about the existance (or non) of a god or gods.
(bill) So what! It is a set of beliefs that it supporters hold fast to despite the lack of any empiracal evidence. Therefor by definetion it is a religon whether you like term or not it is fact.

If it threatens your myopic worldview of fundamentalist (insert appropriate religion here) blah blah, tough.
(bill) No threats. I just wish you would quit ramming your belief system down other peoples throats when all you have is Philosopy

Sink or swim.
(bill) I will swim.




"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Go to Top of Page

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2005 :  13:19:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Ye gods....

I have only recently posted the results of some years of research into the Thecodonts, the forefathers of Mammalia. You asked for transitiona; you got transitional. All you have to do is read it, which I'm begining to doubt that you will.

I ask again, what would you replace evolution with in the schools? Not ID, surely. That turkey is soundly debunked by it's own lack of evidence. And evidence is all...


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Go to Top of Page

Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2005 :  13:19:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

quote:
Originally posted by pleco

Geez, where to begin with this one?

Why don't you try again once you have a very basic understanding of what evolution theory actually is, since it is quite evident you have no idea what you are talking about. Here is one link for starters:

http://www.talkorigins.org



Why don't you explain it for me rather then pawn me off to the TO propaganda page. Typical response. (sigh)

1. Where are all the missing links stored that CD predicted we would find?


CD predicted transitional lifeforms. He thought fossils would inevitably follow. We have learned much about fossils since then. The mechanism by which fossilization occurs is rather rare. If even on element is missing, the fossil will not form. (If everything that died turned into a fossil, we'd be up to our eyeballs in fossils.)

quote:

2. How can blind random mutations "program" for a "reason" like Tommy want's all to believe.


Limitiation of the flesh. Blind random mutations create a difference, those that do not harm or aid the organisms feeding or reproduction cycles will tend to be passed on. Those which do not, will tend not. These are tendencies, not absolutes.

quote:

3. Is the universe eternal or did have a point in time where it began to exist?



This question is not related to Evolution (critters turning into other critters). This is related to Cosmology. You may wish to link it by way of Abiogenesis, but that is similarly invalid.

TO does provide quite a good discussion on this. It is why it is used as a reference. If you are concerned that it is instead a propaganda site, there are several books you can pick up in the library such as Origin of Species by CD which may dispell some of the outright lies that some religious organization have been circulating about his work. The journal Nature will have several issues which will expand your understanding. Any competent university will have access to these publications and indexes to the publications.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 16 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:

The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.


Home | Skeptic Forums | Skeptic Summary | The Kil Report | Creation/Evolution | Rationally Speaking | Skeptillaneous | About Skepticism | Fan Mail | Claims List | Calendar & Events | Skeptic Links | Book Reviews | Gift Shop | SFN on Facebook | Staff | Contact Us

Skeptic Friends Network
© 2008 Skeptic Friends Network Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.3 seconds.
Powered by @tomic Studio
Snitz Forums 2000