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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 12/27/2005 : 06:39:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Yes of coarse the word "reason" is being used in two different ways.
I'm pleased to see that you agree. Since earthquakes, hurricanes and volcanoes (EH&V) are caused, the statement, "It requires cognition, intelligence or consciousness to have a cause." would mean that EH&V must have cognition, intelligence or consciousness. Do you wish to defend the idea that EH&V are conscious?
No I don't because they are not. They are random wheater patterns, rocks banging togather at random, and preasure built up.
Random, my ass. They follow specific physical laws concerning pressure, effects of heat on rock, pressure points on the Earth, and tensile strength of rock. They happen in specific areas of the globe and are not randomly smattered about. Hurricanes are a bit more chaotic, but still form in specific places and fit particular patterns which NOAA has had quite a bit of success predicting once the storms form.
quote:
They, just like random mutations, destroy rather then create.
These events are not completely destructive. Volcanism creates new land, earthquakes are a sign of plate tectonics which also creates mountians, and hurricanes clear the way for urban redevelopment.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 07:46:57 [Permalink]
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In my opinion, there is no such thing as random. The systems are just too complex for we humans to fully understand, YET.
NOTE: I am not saying there is a god or "intelligent designer" or any such nonsense. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 12/27/2005 09:40:56 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 08:35:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Bill:
They are random wheater patterns, rocks banging togather at random, and preasure built up. They, just like random mutations, destroy rather then create.
Gee whiz.
Natural selection works. It took scientists (CD) to figure out the reason it works. While it may be a completely random process, the reason it works is because once in a while a random mutation will give a species an edge over its competition for survival.
(bill) Random causes dis-information.
A long thin beak that can get to tree grubs will work better for a birds survival if there are changes in the eco-system and there are now a lot of tree grubs to be had. The poor birds with short beaks will not have access to the new food supply and if the food supply diminishes that they do have the equipment to take advantage of, they will be at a distinct disadvantage in that environment for survival.
(bill) I agree. I gave you the example of how long hair dogs “survive” in cold climate while short hair “survive” in hot. This is not an example of NDEP (neo Darwinian evolutionary philosophy). It was not a random mutation in the dogs gene for it to grow long hair. It had longer hair then most and the farther it went into colder climate and mated with other dogs who had survived the cold they converged into cold climate dogs. This did not take random mutations played out by chance for the dog to grow long hair for a reason. Survival.
An accident of mutation gave rise to the long thin beaked birds.
(bill) Wrong. The long beak survives in one environment while the short thrives in another. There was no random mutation for a reason required here. And BTW, they were still birds.
But that accident is the reason
(bill) So in NDEP accident is among the mechanisms for programs of complex information created for a reason? Random creates dis-information.
those birds will have the advantage when tree grubs become the main food supply.
(bill) Long hair dogs survive in the cold while short do not and the long haired breed with said kind. Short hair dogs survive in hot while long to not. Both are dogs and random mutations i.e. NDEP did have a thing to do with this.
That beak will be selected for and that bird will be the fittest in that particular ecosystem for continuing survival.
(bill) Random does not select for the reason of survival. It is random.
We can now say that the mutation that gave that bird the advantage is the reason why it out survived the competition at that place at that time.
(bill) The bird had a long a bill and it survived in said area while a short would survive in another. No random mutation required and NDEP was not involved and the bird was still a bird.
As it turned out, the mutation in the code that created
(bill) Random causes dis-information not improvements to complex codes of information.
this monster among the birds of that environment was beneficial if a taste for tree grubs was essential to its success as a species.
(bill) They were still birds and because they had a longer bill they survived in this area while shorts survived in others. No mutation required and no NDEP involved.
Serendipity. (Edited to add: This is of course a very slow process in a changing environment. The long thin beaks evolved slowly. Even punctuated equilibrium is a slow process in a geological timeframe. It just isn't a steady process.) It is we who see the reason natural selection works. Natural selection does not see anything at all. A mutation |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 09:05:51 [Permalink]
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Mutations: quote:
eople often ask questions such as "Doesn't evolution depend on mutations, and aren't most mutations harmful?" and "Are there favorable mutations?". In this FAQ we try to answer these questions. Briefly:
Mutations happen.
They happen with great regularity.
Almost all mutations are neutral.
Of the remainder, benefit/harm depends on circumstances
Biology is complicated; the jargon of the biological sciences is formidable. In this FAQ I have tried to answer common questions in simple language for the lay reader. At the same time I have tried also to provide material in greater depth for the reader who wants scientific substance.
Q: Doesn't evolution depend on mutations and aren't most mutations harmful?
A: No. Most mutations are neither harmful nor helpful.
That's the short answer. The long answer is that mutations can be neutral (neither helpful nor harmful), strictly harmful, strictly helpful, or (and this is important) whether they are harmful or helpful depends on the environment. Most mutations are either neutral or their effect depends on the environment. Let's look at an example of a mutation which may be harmful or helpful, depending upon circumstances.
English peppered moths come in two varieties, light and dark. Before the industrial revolution dark moths were very rare. During the worst years of the industrial revolution when the air was very sooty dark moths became quite common. In recent years, since the major efforts to improve air quality, the light moths are replacing the dark moths. A famous paper by H.B.D. Kettlewell proposed the following explanation for this phenomenon:
Read the article then give reference in opposition to it; in short, back up your claims. Thus far, you have done nothing but make unsubstantiated statments and indulged in various logical fallicies.
The deck, the deal, and the draw are always random. All else is mere mechanics.
Edit: Are you a supporter of Intelligent Design Conjecture?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 12/27/2005 09:12:00 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 09:23:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mutations.htmlMutations.
The deck, the deal, and the draw are always random. All else is mere mechanics.
mechanics driven by reasoning agent. If no reasoning agent then no flush, straight, full house or even the game of poker for that mater. Without reasoning agent not even a deck of cards would be present to invinte the game of poker. Just like in NDEP in poker if you have no reasoning being to start and guide the process you have nothing and no process.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 09:30:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott:
Random causes dis-information.
Uh, Bill:
quote:
disinformation:
noun
false information spread in order to deceive people
So you are claiming that randomness has a purpose, that is to deceive people? I don't get it, you previously claimed that randomness has no purpose. What do you really believe?
quote:
Just like in NDEP, in poker with no intelligent agent to guide and direct the process the cards do not even get dealt. In fact it takes intelligent agent to create the cards and the game of poker before the deal can even be randomly dealt.
Again, who or what is this intelligent agent of which you speak?
quote:
Originally posted by me:
By the way, did you read the reference I gave you?
Obviously not, since you continue to repeat nonsensical gibberish like a not too bright parrot (apologies to all you bird lovers). Bill, read a book, do some research, learn something. Your assertions are empty. You have not backed up a single one of your claims, each has been refuted, and you continue to repeat the same crap. And you haven't answered the questions asked of you. Please try to do so in a coherent manner. Until you answer the questions and/or back up your assertions, you just come off as another tiresome creationist boob.
Or to put in a way you might understand:
Your BS is FUBAR. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 09:44:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
mechanics driven by reasoning agent. If no reasoning agent then no flush, straight, full house or even the game of poker for that mater. Without reasoning agent not even a deck of cards would be present to invinte the game of poker. Just like in NDEP in poker if you have no reasoning being to start and guide the process you have nothing and no process.
You are trying to steer back to some "first mover" argument for evolution, right?
Bill is just another IDer who doesn't understand evolution theory at all, but feels comfortable enough to say it couldn't possibly work without being able to back up his statements with anything other than a twisted "god-did-it" argument. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 12/27/2005 09:46:17 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 09:56:47 [Permalink]
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As I said, I kinda knew I was spitting into a wind. I will debate no further with Bill because it is a waste of my time. I throw away broken light bulbs. I don't keep trying to get them to illuminate...
Bill, I await the day when you and your cronies are able to falsify evolution in any meaningful way. Until then, I feel safe viewing evolution, by way of natural selection and other mechanisms, as the best way to explain the diversity of the life on our planet.
What would be really novel is if you guys could come up with a theory that could actually challenge evolution. You know, something in the realm of the falsifiable. Something that has predictive qualities and all of those other annoying things that all real science demands and evolution theory delivers.. Repeating creationist drivel (kinds) and other silly proclamations like “Random causes dis-information not improvements to complex codes of information” will not do the trick. Those things are the mantra of the cite-less. Go get a theory Bill. After 150 years of hand waving, don't you think it's about time? You won't win by default you know. (And your camp has been so inept at punching wholes in the existing theory, by now you should all be embarrassed about that.) Time to put up, I say.
In the meantime, thanks once again for your tax dollars that go to support science education being taught in science classrooms. Like it or not, it's money well spent…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 10:18:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Scott...
It was not a random mutation in the dogs gene for it to grow long hair.
Yes, it was.quote:
It had longer hair then most and the farther it went into colder climate and mated with other dogs who had survived the cold they converged into cold climate dogs.
That part you have more or less right. This is the general concept of natural selection. You don't seem to be arguing against the fact that evolution is occurring. Apparently you only take issue with random mutation causing beneficial (or detrimental) features that make certain members of a species more (or less) fit for survival. Unfortunately, judging from the evidence you've provided so far, that part of the theory of evolution might just be beyond your grasp.quote:
This did not take random mutations played out by chance for the dog to grow long hair for a reason.
[and...]
The long beak survives in one environment while the short thrives in another. There was no random mutation for a reason required here.
[and...]
Random does not select for the reason of survival. It is random.
Again (and again and again) you show a total lack of understanding the concept of "reason" as it applies to evolution. You're wrong again (and again and again).quote:
Then there would have been infinite more amounts of example laid down in the state of transition between spices then the species in current state. Yet we have millions of examples in modern form and none in transition. We should have infinite more showing transition then modern but we do not. You would be able to pick up novelty keychain, paper weight or fire place mantel TF at the gift shop of the local NHM gift shop if billions of years and billions of slow transition turned lizard to bird.
You repeatedly demonstrate that you don't understand the concept of transitional fossils. Your continued claim that such things don't exist, when in fact they do, is not evidence that you've debunked the theory of evolution. It is simply testimony to your ignorance.quote:
Just like in NDEP, in poker with no intelligent agent to guide and direct the process the cards do not even get dealt. In fact it takes intelligent agent to create the cards and the game of poker before the deal can even be randomly dealt. Lame analogy.
Actually the analogy was quite well stated, although possibly way beyond your intellectual capacity to comprehend. Your refusal or inability to understand does not invalidate its aptness.
You do accept evolution as the process which has brought life to its current state, but don't consider random mutation to be the mechanism behind the changes which drive evolution. If you're so sure that doesn't cause the differences that provide better or worse chances of a species' survival, just exactly what do you think creates the changes? What does interject those little differences from one generation to the next that give a particular plant or animal an edge in its chances to survive and procreate? People keep asking you this, but for some reason you refuse to answer. If the process doesn't come about by random mutation, what do you propose is the process by which life on Earth has evolved to its present form?
Are you just afraid you can't answer that in an articulate or intelligent way? Are you scared that analyzing the issue might make your god delusion crumble and fade? Maybe you're scared that reality beyond your delusion requires thinking and learning, and maybe that's all just too much work for your brain. Do you actually have a notion about the process by which life on Earth has evolved to its present form, or have you spent all your time on this forum just babbling nonsense?
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 10:31:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
In the meantime, thanks once again for your tax dollars that go to support science education being taught in science classrooms. Like it or not, it's money well spent…
And as I said before the public schools by % and the amount of funding they get produce morons. Private and home schooled kids test far higher in basic testing then do PS educated kids. Many PS won't tell Johnny that he is wrong if he answers 5 for 2+2 because that would stunt his self worth. Oh but they will tell him his great great... granddad may have been a monkey transition between man and beast. Many manufacture kids who can not read or write. Like I said my kids don't attend PS so I just feel sorry for the kids that do. Booze, drugs, unbrideled sex, disrespect, can't read nor write. And that is just in the teacher lounge. Wait till you see the kids. Memo to Kil: Many in the public school can not even read TOE let alone process it. Good luck with all that. I predict the overall state of affairs at the PSs will continue to decline in concert with NDEP being preached from the pulpits in the local HS science class to a group of morons who could not rear it anyway. One failed system deserves another. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 11:14:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
In the meantime, thanks once again for your tax dollars that go to support science education being taught in science classrooms. Like it or not, it's money well spent…
And as I said before the public schools by % and the amount of funding they get produce morons.
Because homeschooled kids don't have the security, after school activity, or credentialing expenses.
quote:
Private and home schooled kids test far higher in basic testing then do PS educated kids. Many PS won't tell Johnny that he is wrong if he answers 5 for 2+2 because that would stunt his self worth.
I'm calling bullshit on this one. PS in the past have done social promoting through the grades. This is no longer in favor due to the attention illiteracy in inner-city schools has gotten. In no systemic case has a child ever been told a wrong answer he gave was right to further his self esteem.
quote:
Oh but they will tell him his great great... granddad may have been a monkey transition between man and beast. Many manufacture kids who can not read or write.
Again, I'm calling bullshit on this one. Prove your allegation that many have produced such children.
quote:
Like I said my kids don't attend PS so I just feel sorry for the kids that do. Booze, drugs, unbrideled sex, disrespect, can't read nor write. And that is just in the teacher lounge. Wait till you see the kids.
Again, prove your allegation. I'll concede disrespect but it seems endemic to this generation rather than PS related. Unbridled sex? Based on what?
quote:
Memo to Kil: Many in the public school can not even read TOE let alone process it.
Again, I'm calling bullshit.
https://www.nsba.org/site/docs/33800/33745.pdf
Same tired lies from the homeschool proponents.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 11:25:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Scott...
And as I said before the public schools by % and the amount of funding they get produce morons. Private and home schooled kids test far higher in basic testing then do PS educated kids. Many PS won't tell Johnny that he is wrong if he answers 5 for 2+2 because that would stunt his self worth. Oh but they will tell him his great great... granddad may have been a monkey transition between man and beast. Many manufacture kids who can not read or write. Like I said my kids don't attend PS so I just feel sorry for the kids that do. Booze, drugs, unbrideled sex, disrespect, can't read nor write. And that is just in the teacher lounge. Wait till you see the kids. Memo to Kil: Many in the public school can not even read TOE let alone process it. Good luck with all that. I predict the overall state of affairs at the PSs will continue to decline in concert with NDEP being preached from the pulpits in the local HS science class to a group of morons who could not rear it anyway. One failed system deserves another.
You're wrong again, Bill Scott. So far in this discussion you're almost always wrong. You've equated the poor quality of public education here in the US with the lack of teaching children that some science should be abandoned in favor of accepting a myth as true. There is, in fact, no such correlation. On the contrary...
If you do a little research (an activity that unfortunately appears to be outside your range of abilities), you'll find that Finland currently has the best education system on Earth. In Finland they keep a complete separation between religion and public services such as politics and education. They teach science, not religion, in science classes. They teach the story of biblical creation, outside of science class, as a fable.  quote:
Finland Diary...
Finland just might be the world's most interesting country that Americans know least about. It has the best school system in the world, some of the most liberated women (the president is female), more cell phones per capita than anyone else, one of the world's best high-tech companies (Nokia), remarkable information technology of many kinds, great music from rock and jazz to classical. The Finns are proud of their generous welfare state, which provides, among much else, free health care and free education at every level.
[...]
* Prayer in schools, and the separation of church and state generally? Does religion play any role in public life?
A. No prayer in school. Finnish politicians don't refer to religion. You would never hear a Finnish politician say "God bless Finland." Finns want these things to be separated.
* The teaching of evolution or creationism in the schools?
A. All schools teach the evolution theory, the Christian theory of creation is naturally also taught but not as an alternative to science but rather as an allegorical story.
So you're just talking out your ass, again. You're wrong about everything. Get over it.
Oh, and for about the eighth time, if you don't agree that random mutation is the cause of the changes that drive evolution, what do you propose is the process by which life on Earth has evolved to its present form?
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 11:34:22 [Permalink]
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I guess were debating ourselves, this isnt the predictions thread.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 12:50:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mutations.htmlMutations.
The deck, the deal, and the draw are always random. All else is mere mechanics.
mechanics driven by reasoning agent. If no reasoning agent then no flush, straight, full house or even the game of poker for that mater. Without reasoning agent not even a deck of cards would be present to invinte the game of poker. Just like in NDEP in poker if you have no reasoning being to start and guide the process you have nothing and no process.
In other words, God?
You claim that the Toe is false, yet you have put forth nothing to replace it with; only empty words.
I ask again: are you a subscriber to Intellegent Design, and if so, why? And if not, then what?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 13:11:53 [Permalink]
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I being not terribly bright, shall piss into the wind again:
Read this, then explain why there are no reptile fossils found in Cambrian strata.
quote:
Cambrian "explosion"
Measured by virtually any criterion one might propose, studies of Precambrian life have burst forth since the mid-1960s to culminate in recent years in discovery of the oldest fossils known, petrified cellular microbes nearly 3,500 million years old, more than three-quarters the age of the Earth. Precambrian paleobiology is thriving---the vast majority of all scientists who have ever investigated the early fossil record are alive and working today; new discoveries are being made at an ever quickening clip---progress set in motion by the few bold scientists who blazed this trail in the 1950s and 1960s, just as their course was charted by the Dawsons, Walcotts, and Sewards, the pioneering pathfinders of the field. And the collective legacy of all who have played a role dates to Darwin and the dilemma of the missing Precambrian fossil record he first posed. After more than a century of trial and error, of search and final discovery, those of us who wonder about life's early history can be thankful that what was once "inexplicable" to Darwin is no longer so to us. --J. William Schopf
Continuing:
quote:
The Cambrian explosion refers to the quality of the fossil record during the first 30 million years of the Cambrian Period (roughly 570 to 500 million years ago). During that 30-million-year period, "mollusks, starfish, arthropods, worms, and chordates (including vertebrates)"* evolved. There were sponges, bryozoans, hydrozoans, brachiopods, and a few species of stalked echinoderms.* As Richard Dawkins notes: "It's as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history" (Dawkins 1996: 229). Dawkins doesn't claim to know why there is so little pre-Cambrian fossil evidence but he suspects "it might be that many of these animals had only soft parts to their bodies: no shells or bones to fossilize" (Dawkins 1996: 230).
The oldest fossilized bacteria date from about 3.5 billion years ago. Two billion years later algae—organisms with cells, a nucleus, and chromosomes—appeared. Marine invertebrates with hard shells and skeletons of chitin or lime are more conducive to fossil preservation than soft-bodied creatures. Perhaps adding to the conditions that were conducive to preserving fossils during the Cambrian Period was the fact that most landmasses on the planet at that time were in the Tropics or the southern hemisphere.
Before the Cambrian Period, life on earth had emerged but had not evolved very significantly. One explanation for this is that respiration was not possible as there was not much oxygen content in the atmosphere and the oceans until the Cambrian. Another explanation is that the earth was a frozen snowball until about the Cambrian Period and that sudden melting brought about a "climate shock" that triggered the evolution of multi-cellular animals. There are other proposed explanations, as well.*
For some reason, creationists and intelligent design advocates think the Cambrian explosion is evidence that counts against evolution but supports their hypothesis that an invisible magical being created species individually. As Jerry Coyne notes:
many animals and plants do not show up as fossils until well after the Cambrian explosion: bony fishes and land plants first appeared around 440 million years ago, reptiles around 350 million years ago, mammals around 250 million years ago, flowering plants around 210 million years ago, and human ancestors around 5 million years ago. The staggered appearance of groups that become very different over the next 500 million years gives no support to the notion of instantaneously created species that thereafter remain largely unchanged. If this record does reflect the exertions of an intelligent designer, he was apparently dissatisfied with nearly all of his creations, repeatedly destroying them and creating a new set of species that just happened to resemble descendants of those that he had destroyed.
Oh, and while we're about it, you have neglected to answer my question concerning why no other fossils of anything are found in conjunction with the oldest stromatilites. No doubt you just forgot it; well now's the time to rectify that oversite.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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