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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
 Posted - 12/27/2005 : 15:44:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil:
I throw away broken light bulbs. I don't keep trying to get them to illuminate...
I don't know if this bulb is broken, but it does seem rather dim. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 15:45:59 [Permalink]
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Heh, couldn't resist this one:
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 17:12:57 [Permalink]
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Ho-ho-ho, filthy!
Now, for a newsy tidbit from the Onion....
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/43899
Theory of Intelligent School-Board Design Disproven |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 21:24:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Bill:
Like I said my kids don't attend PS so I just feel sorry for the kids that do.
Well…sigh…it does take two to make a child. Hopefully your kids were dealt a better hand then the one you got, Bill. Genetically speaking of course. Perhaps they will be able to grasp the subtleties of our language.
By the way, I bet that even with the “Booze, drugs, unbrideled sex, disrespect, can't read nor write” and all the other evils that are part and parcel of a public education, my poor 16 year old son, a victim of public education, has a better grasp of our language than you have. And I'm willing to put money on that.
Oh and hey. Lets take a moment and do something that I never do because normally I don't care. Plus, it will place me inside the proverbial “glass house” throwing stones. But I just can't resist. Bill, how many mistakes can you find in the following sentence?
“Booze, drugs, unbrideled sex, disrespect, can't read nor write.”
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2005 : 00:21:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
(bill) I agree. I gave you the example of how long hair dogs “survive” in cold climate while short hair “survive” in hot. This is not an example of NDEP (neo Darwinian evolutionary philosophy). It was not a random mutation in the dogs gene for it to grow long hair. It had longer hair then most and the farther it went into colder climate and mated with other dogs who had survived the cold they converged into cold climate dogs. This did not take random mutations played out by chance for the dog to grow long hair for a reason. Survival.
Bill, based on the above, it appears that you agree with natural selection in general, but disagree that it is possible for random mutations to confer a survival advantage. Is that correct? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2005 : 03:39:46 [Permalink]
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Bill is very selective in his replies. For example, he'd rather comment on a throw-away phrase within a post than on it's topic. It's quote-mining, of course; a ploy to get around the question used by creationists and cheap polititions world-wide. Bill has managed to turn it into a red herring as well, and it would be a straw man if he'd managed to debunk it. But that's ok; being difficult to discourage by such Hovindesque antics, I will put the article up again: Mutations.
quote:
Q: Doesn't evolution depend on mutations and aren't most mutations harmful?
A: No. Most mutations are neither harmful nor helpful.
That's the short answer. The long answer is that mutations can be neutral (neither helpful nor harmful), strictly harmful, strictly helpful, or (and this is important) whether they are harmful or helpful depends on the environment. Most mutations are either neutral or their effect depends on the environment. Let's look at an example of a mutation which may be harmful or helpful, depending upon circumstances.
English peppered moths come in two varieties, light and dark. Before the industrial revolution dark moths were very rare. During the worst years of the industrial revolution when the air was very sooty dark moths became quite common. In recent years, since the major efforts to improve air quality, the light moths are replacing the dark moths. A famous paper by H.B.D. Kettlewell proposed the following explanation for this phenomenon:
Birds eat the kind of moth they can see the best.
In England before the Industrial Revolution trees are often covered with light colored lichens. As a result light moths were favored because they were hard to see on the bark of trees whereas the dark moths were easy to see; birds ate the dark moths. During the worst years of the Industrial Revolution the air was very sooty so tree bark was dark because of soot. Dark moths were hard to see whereas the light moths were easy to see; birds ate the light moths. As a result the dark moths became common and the light moths became rare.
Despite creationist criticisms, this explanation has stood the test of time. Before the Industrial Revolution, a mutation which changed light moths into dark moths was an unfavorable (harmful) mutation, whereas during the dark years it was a favorable (helpful) mutation.
To see why most mutations are neither harmful nor helpful it helps to know a bit about what mutations actually are. A mutation is a change in the genetic material that controls heredity. The genetic material is contained in chromosomes. Plants and animals have two copies of each chromosome whereas bacteria only have one copy. Organisms which have two copies of each chromosomes are called diploids. Those which only have one copy of each chromosome are called haploids.
In all truth, I got tired of hearing about peppered moths years ago and feverently wish that the pipestrell bats would devour every fucking one of the wretched things, but they are such a good example that I fear we are stuck with them.
So Bill, any thoughts on mutations in peppered moths? Or Chiroptera for that matter?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 12/28/2005 03:51:48 |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2005 : 05:01:27 [Permalink]
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| Ah, but they are still moths, right? Just as the two-headed turtle he so conveniently ignored is still a turtle, even though it has two heads. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2005 : 06:19:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Scott...
It was not a random mutation in the dogs gene for it to grow long hair.
Yes, it was.quote:
It had longer hair then most and the farther it went into colder climate and mated with other dogs who had survived the cold they converged into cold climate dogs.
That part you have more or less right. This is the general concept of natural selection. You don't seem to be arguing against the fact that evolution is occurring. Apparently you only take issue with random mutation causing beneficial (or detrimental) features that make certain members of a species more (or less) fit for survival. Unfortunately, judging from the evidence you've provided so far, that part of the theory of evolution might just be beyond your grasp.quote:
This did not take random mutations played out by chance for the dog to grow long hair for a reason.
[and...]
The long beak survives in one environment while the short thrives in another. There was no random mutation for a reason required here.
[and...]
Random does not select for the reason of survival. It is random.
Again (and again and again) you show a total lack of understanding the concept of "reason" as it applies to evolution. You're wrong again (and again and again).quote:
Then there would have been infinite more amounts of example laid down in the state of transition between spices then the species in current state. Yet we have millions of examples in modern form and none in transition. We should have infinite more showing transition then modern but we do not. You would be able to pick up novelty keychain, paper weight or fire place mantel TF at the gift shop of the local NHM gift shop if billions of years and billions of slow transition turned lizard to bird.
You repeatedly demonstrate that you don't understand the concept of transitional fossils. Your continued claim that such things don't exist, when in fact they do, is not evidence that you've debunked the theory of evolution. It is simply testimony to your ignorance.quote:
Just like in NDEP, in poker with no intelligent agent to guide and direct the process the cards do not even get dealt. In fact it takes intelligent agent to create the cards and the game of poker before the deal can even be randomly dealt. Lame analogy.
Actually the analogy was quite well stated, although possibly way beyond your intellectual capacity to comprehend. Your refusal or inability to understand does not invalidate its aptness.
You do accept evolution as the process which has brought life to its current state, but don't consider random mutation to be the mechanism behind the changes which drive evolution. If you're so sure that doesn't cause the differences that provide better or worse chances of a species' survival, just exactly what do you think creates the changes? What does interject those little differences from one generation to the next that give a particular plant or animal an edge in its chances to survive and procreate? People keep asking you this, but for some reason you refuse to answer. If the process doesn't come about by random mutation, what do you propose is the process by which life on Earth has evolved to its present form?
Are you just afraid you can't answer that in an articulate or intelligent way? Are you scared that analyzing the issue might make your god delusion crumble and fade? Maybe you're scared that reality beyond your delusion requires thinking and learning, and maybe that's all just too much work for your brain. Do you actually have a notion about the process by which life on Earth has evolved to its present form, or have you spent all your time on this forum just babbling nonsense?
Originally posted by Bill Scott...
It was not a random mutation in the dogs gene for it to grow long hair.
Yes, it was.
(bill) No it was not.
That part you have more or less right. This is the general concept of natural selection. You don't seem to be arguing against the fact that evolution is occurring.
(bill) micro? No. But the dogs are still dogs and the birds are still birds and it does not take, nor did it take mutations, random on top of it, for the long hair dogs to survive in cold and short not. They simple migrated into cold climates and long haired dogs thrived while shorts did not. No mutations needed and no NDEP involved.
Apparently you only take issue with random mutation causing beneficial (or detrimental) features that make certain members of a species more (or less) fit for survival.
(bill)Yes I do. But I take more of an issue when skeptics try to tell me that these random mutations programmed at the cellular level with the reason of survival in mind. The skeptic has given the reason as survival. Indicating that they have given the RM the ability to use reason, logic and forethought as they plot their survival tactic with survival in mind while programming the creature not necessarily for it's own long term survival but for the survival of the entire species. Or at least until it turns into another species like a lizard to a bird. This of coarse is Si-Fi.
Unfortunately, judging from the evidence you've provided so far, that part of the theory of evolution might just be beyond your grasp.
(bill) Yeah maybe? Or maybe it is just so entertaining the lengths the skeptic will go to and the hoops they will jump through and the logic they deny to pass on their philosophy.
Again (and again and again) you show a total lack of understanding the concept of "reason" as it applies to evolution. You're wrong again (and again and again).
(bill) Or maybe I just explain to you the absurdity of the notion that random mutations can program with reason for the reason of survival of (not the one little creature) but the entire species. As if NS has information on the outside world that it can use to design a better program so that the creature and all it's kin can lead longer happy lives.
You repeatedly demonstrate that you don't understand the concept of transitional fossils. Your continued claim that such things don't exist, when in fact they do, is not evidence that you've debunked the theory of evolution. It is simply testimony to your ignorance.
(bill) Please send me the TF keychain set then from your local NHM since we have millions of examples stuffing the NHM to capacity. They were from all the billions of years where modern day creatures where in their transition state and they were put down in abundance right?
Actually the analogy was quite well stated, although possibly |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2005 : 06:23:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
In the meantime, thanks once again for your tax dollars that go to support science education being taught in science classrooms. Like it or not, it's money well spent…
And as I said before the public schools by % and the amount of funding they get produce morons.
Because homeschooled kids don't have the security, after school activity, or credentialing expenses.
quote:
Private and home schooled kids test far higher in basic testing then do PS educated kids. Many PS won't tell Johnny that he is wrong if he answers 5 for 2+2 because that would stunt his self worth.
I'm calling bullshit on this one. PS in the past have done social promoting through the grades. This is no longer in favor due to the attention illiteracy in inner-city schools has gotten. In no systemic case has a child ever been told a wrong answer he gave was right to further his self esteem.
quote:
Oh but they will tell him his great great... granddad may have been a monkey transition between man and beast. Many manufacture kids who can not read or write.
Again, I'm calling bullshit on this one. Prove your allegation that many have produced such children.
quote:
Like I said my kids don't attend PS so I just feel sorry for the kids that do. Booze, drugs, unbrideled sex, disrespect, can't read nor write. And that is just in the teacher lounge. Wait till you see the kids.
Again, prove your allegation. I'll concede disrespect but it seems endemic to this generation rather than PS related. Unbridled sex? Based on what?
quote:
Memo to Kil: Many in the public school can not even read TOE let alone process it.
Again, I'm calling bullshit.
https://www.nsba.org/site/docs/33800/33745.pdf
Same tired lies from the homeschool proponents.
VD
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Because homeschooled kids don't have the security,
(bill) Your wrong, HS kids have the security. security of not being sold drugs in the bathroom at school or having their teacher proposition them for sex etc...
after school activity,
(bill) wrong again. There are many programs that bring HS kids together for an array of activities with other HS kids in their area. And many private and public schools allow HS kids to compete in their sports programs.
or credentialing expenses.
(bill) We spend big money on them (public schools) and they produce illiterate morons. Unacceptable.
I'm calling bullshit |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2005 : 06:24:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mutations.htmlMutations.
The deck, the deal, and the draw are always random. All else is mere mechanics.
mechanics driven by reasoning agent. If no reasoning agent then no flush, straight, full house or even the game of poker for that mater. Without reasoning agent not even a deck of cards would be present to invinte the game of poker. Just like in NDEP in poker if you have no reasoning being to start and guide the process you have nothing and no process.
In other words, God?
You claim that the Toe is false, yet you have put forth nothing to replace it with; only empty words.
I ask again: are you a subscriber to Intellegent Design, and if so, why? And if not, then what?
I ask again: are you a subscriber to Intellegent Design, and if so, why? And if not, then what?
(bill) Are you? If not then why and where did CD's "warm little pond" come from then?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2005 : 06:28:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Ah, but they are still moths, right? Just as the two-headed turtle he so conveniently ignored is still a turtle, even though it has two heads.
Ah yes, but they are mutated moths! In fact, all moths are mutated moths. Indeed, to carry the matter to it's final conclusion, all of the organisms defunct and extant on this earth and concievably the universe, are the result of random mutations and time.
Kind of beautiful when you think about it. What sorts of mutations might have encouraged Dimetrodon to develope it's lovely sail and the dread Dunkleosteous the most powerful jaws ever seen on the planet?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2005 : 06:42:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
VD
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Because homeschooled kids don't have the security,
(bill) Your wrong, HS kids have the security. security of not being sold drugs in the bathroom at school or having their teacher proposition them for sex etc...
Do try to keep up. The deliberate parsing that you have decided on takes this completely out of context because you know your position is indefensable. The security mentioned here relates to the cost of providing such security.
quote:
after school activity,
(bill) wrong again. There are many programs that bring HS kids together for an array of activities with other HS kids in their area. And many private and public schools allow HS kids to compete in their sports programs.
Programs not available in all areas nor charged back to the families at the level required to fully pay for that child's involvement.
quote:
or credentialing expenses.
(bill) We spend big money on them (public schools) and they produce illiterate morons. Unacceptable.
The article I linked to says this allegation is bullshit. It even lists it's sources for information. Something you don't do.
quote:
I'm calling bullshit on this one. PS in the past have done social promoting through the grades.
(bill) More of their ill fated attempts at social engineering ending in failure. Gee that was shocking.
Gee, they tried something and it didn't work. They abandoned it. They learned from mistakes. So tell me, what's it like to never make a mistake or error in judgement in the education of your children?
quote:
This is no longer in favor due to the attention illiteracy in inner-city schools has gotten.
(bill) a fine display of PE at that
The fact remains that it is no longer happening. Your allegation is bullshit.
quote:
In no systemic case has a child ever been told a wrong answer he gave was right to further his self esteem.
(bill) well now if they would/could just get the answers right we will be moving in the right direction.
I accept your concession that your original accusation was a lie.
quote:
Again, I'm calling bullshit on this one. Prove your allegation that many have produced such children.
(bill) MMM 101
molecules to monkeys to man NDEP
And this proves your allegation....... how?
quote:
Again, prove your allegation. I'll concede disrespect but it seems endemic to this generation rather than PS related. Unbridled sex? Based on what?
(bill) 90210, 21 jump street, Melrose Place etc...
You do realize that those are fictional depictions. They are geared towards making money through advertizing and not towards accuracy. What study can you cite that proves your allegation. TV works of fiction don't cut it.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2005 : 06:43:56 [Permalink]
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<snip>
quote:
In other words, God?
You claim that the Toe is false, yet you have put forth nothing to replace it with; only empty words.
I ask again: are you a subscriber to Intellegent Design, and if so, why? And if not, then what?
I ask again: are you a subscriber to Intellegent Design, and if so, why? And if not, then what?
(bill) Are you? If not then why and where did CD's "warm little pond" come from then?
At it again, eh?
Being a rational person, of course not. And WTF is "CD?"
And who said, "Warm, little pond?" Certainly not I. Suggested reading topic: Hydrothermal Vents and Extremophiles.
Nobody knows exactly how it all started. Yet.
Now then: Mutations. Comments?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2005 : 07:41:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
VD
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Because homeschooled kids don't have the security,
(bill) Your wrong, HS kids have the security. security of not being sold drugs in the bathroom at school or having their teacher proposition them for sex etc...
Do try to keep up. The deliberate parsing that you have decided on takes this completely out of context because you know your position is indefensable. The security mentioned here relates to the cost of providing such security.
quote:
after school activity,
(bill) wrong again. There are many programs that bring HS kids together for an array of activities with other HS kids in their area. And many private and public schools allow HS kids to compete in their sports programs.
Programs not available in all areas nor charged back to the families at the level required to fully pay for that child's involvement.
quote:
or credentialing expenses.
(bill) We spend big money on them (public schools) and they produce illiterate morons. Unacceptable.
The article I linked to says this allegation is bullshit. It even lists it's sources for information. Something you don't do.
quote:
I'm calling bullshit on this one. PS in the past have done social promoting through the grades.
(bill) More of their ill fated attempts at social engineering ending in failure. Gee that was shocking.
Gee, they tried something and it didn't work. They abandoned it. They learned from mistakes. So tell me, what's it like to never make a mistake or error in judgement in the education of your children?
quote:
This is no longer in favor due to the attention illiteracy in inner-city schools has gotten.
(bill) a fine display of PE at that
The fact remains that it is no longer happening. Your allegation is bullshit.
quote:
In no systemic case has a child ever been told a wrong answer he gave was right to further his self esteem.
(bill) well now if they would/could just get the answers right we will be moving in the right direction.
I accept your concession that your original accusation was a lie.
quote:
Again, I'm calling bullshit on this one. Prove your allegation that many have produced such children.
(bill) MMM 101
molecules to monkeys to man NDEP
And this proves your allegation....... how?
quote:
Again, prove your allegation. I'll concede disrespect but it seems endemic to this generation rather than PS related. Unbridled sex? Based on what?
(bill) 90210, 21 jump street, Melrose Place etc...
You do realize that those are fictional depictions. They are geared towards making money through advertizing and not towards accuracy. What study can you cite that proves your allegation. TV works of fiction don't cut it.
Originally posted by Bill scott
VD
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Because homeschooled kids don't have the security,
(bill) Your wrong, HS kids have the security. security of not being sold drugs in the bathroom at school or having their teacher proposition them for sex etc...
Do try to keep up. The deliberate parsing that you have decided on takes this completely out of context because you know your position is indefensable. The security mentioned here relates to the cost of providing such security.
(bill) Yes and I pointed out the fact that HS kids do not have to worry about providing security because drugs and sex are not exchanged freely in their restrooms and they do not have to worry about being knifed for looking at someone's boy/girl friend. Yeah, it sounds just like the place I want to send my children to learn. (sigh) Put their life at added risk so they can me taught MMM evo. 101 (sigh)
Programs not available in all areas nor charged back to the families at the level required to fully pay for that child's involvement.
(bill) Oh please. The family already pays taxes to be used to pay for the PSs and they then have to pay more money if they want their HS kid to participate in PS sports programming. The PS is double dipping and still can't turn our money around for acceptable results. Sad.
The article I linked to says this allegation is bullshit.
(bill) all the PS I have personally visited shows the allegation stands.
I'm calling bullshit on this one. PS in the past have done social promoting through the grades.
(bill) More of their ill fated attempts at social engineering ending in failure. Gee that was shocking.
Gee, they tried something and it didn't work. They abandoned it. They learned from mistakes.
(bill) The fact that they tried it at all shows how out of touch PSs are while they continue to fall into the abyss. What next, midnight basketball? Oh yeah they tried that as well.
So tell me, what's it like to never make a mistake or error in judgement in the education of your children?
(bill) Look I am human and make mistakes as we all do. But some of the logic put forth for some of the nonsense that they (PSs) have propagated is just a plan lack of thought and common sense.
The fact remains that it is no longer happening. Your allegation is bullshit.
(bill) And now the inner city schools are thriving because of it right? Oh please.
I accept your concession that your original accusation was a lie.
(bill) Suit yourself...
Again, prove your allegation. I'll concede disrespect but it seems endemic to this generation rather than PS related. Unbridled sex? Based on what?
(bill) 90210, 21 jump street, Melrose Place etc...
You do realize that those are fictional depictions. They are geared towards making money through advertizing and not towards accuracy. What study can you cite that proves your allegation. TV works of fiction don't cut it.
(bill) Oh relax I was just trying to inject a little humor which obviously went right over you. How about all the PS teachers j |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2005 : 07:43:09 [Permalink]
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| No offense, but paranoia will destroy-ya... |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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