|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 12/22/2005 : 09:20:47 [Permalink]
|
Speaking of National Geographic and Dr Xu, here is what has to be one of the neatest proto-bird fossils ever found:
Artist's illustration, of course, but it's a well educated illustration.
 |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
 |
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 09:32:44 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
[
Oh wait, it's Archeoraptor, isn't it? National Geographic didn't pay for the fossil -- they don't do that in any case. A private collector bought it at a gem show, after it had been smuggled out of China, for something like $80,000. He passed it on to National Geographic for conformation, who, understandablly excited, published before peer rewiew was finished, a huge mistake they are still trying to live down. Both the Journals of Science and Nature rejected the fossil. It's owner gave it to Dr. Xu Xing, who took it back to China and found that even though it was a fraud, it was still a valuable find in that it was comprised of two as yet unamed species.
Do try to avoid using so many acronyms. they tend to be confusing.
Oh wait, it's Archeoraptor, isn't it? National Geographic didn't pay for the fossil -- they don't do that in any case. A private collector bought it at a gem show, after it had been smuggled out of China, for something like $80,000. He passed it on to National Geographic for conformation, who, understandablly excited, published before peer rewiew was finished, a huge mistake they are still trying to live down. Both the Journals of Science and Nature rejected the fossil. It's owner gave it to Dr. Xu Xing, who took it back to China and found that even though it was a fraud, it was still a valuable find in that it was comprised of two as yet unamed species.
(bill) Right, Czerkas paid 80K and then made a deal with NG who displayed the rock as a "true missing link in the complex chain that connects dinosours and birds." So why would Czerkas pay 80K for rock showing transformation from raptor to bird if in fact as CD predicted we would have already unearthed a great abunance of MLs many of which would have shown a raptor/bird creature? Because we don't have the TF in abundance as CD said we would thus by his own admision the TOE is dead. The fact that Czerkas was willing to plop 80k down and NG was willing to lay their rep on the line to showoff a supposed TF proves my point that the macro TOE crowd is still in search for thier holy grail the TF. The equlavant would be for me to pay some chap 80K for a VCR and brag that I am the first to have one when they can be found in great ABUNDANCE at wally mart for $100 all day long. Now if was the only known VCR in the world at the time then that would justify the 80k and that is why they were willing to pay big $$$ and put fake rock on cover. They thought they had a scoop on ML and rushed to press without full examantion becuase TF are not found. Why would Czerkas pay 80k for a rock showing a missing link if these could be found in great ABUNDANCE already as CD said they would be? Why would NG make deals and plaster the "missing link" on their cover as link to raptor/bird in fact puting their rep on the line if MLs showing raptor to bird were old news by now and one could pick up himself a TF at the local NHMs gift shop because they are in such abundance. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 09:38:59 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Speaking of National Geographic and Dr Xu, here is what has to be one of the neatest proto-bird fossils ever found:
Artist's illustration, of course, but it's a well educated illustration.
Another drawing? 1000's of TFs on display around the world and you have a drawing? (sigh) |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 09:49:42 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
A blast from the past:
quote:
Bill Scott:
you tell me that our DNA cells "program themselves"
to die off and replace themselves with inferior cells
ultimately leading to death. The "reason" (as if blind
random mutation has a reason for anything) for this is
to limit the life span of the individual as not to over-
populate the planet earth.
quote:
Tommy:
I don''t recall saying that. I even went back and reread our previous correspondence, but couldn''t find it there, either. Please retrieve the original email where you found that statement and send it to me to refresh my memory.
Bill is still running with a probable misunderstanding of what Tommy was saying. He is still spouting what he thinks is the gist of what Tommy said without sourcing the original letter so that Tommy could respond. Now, again, he has brought up what he thinks Tommy said and yet to date has not provided anything to support his assertion.
Edited to add:
Tommy did respond to Bills assertion anyway. Turns out Bill lifted it from a letter that was not written to Bill. Bill has chosen to ignore Tommy's response for the sake of this debate, demonstrating that Bill is a liar.
Bill, you haven't changed a bit. If you want to show that Tommy was being silly, provide the original quote with surrounding context. Otherwise I will continue to consider you a one trick pony and a liar to boot.
I know that you will never ever regard any fossil as being transitional no matter how compelling the fossil is. You can't go there, and really, that is fine with me. Your objections will not change a thing.
I had just respnded to an email I got from a friend who was posting with tommy. Once I explained this Tommy he went back and pulled his old email where he states that our cells are "programed for a Reason" That one to this date still makes me chuckle. TOE programing for a reason. Oh that is rich. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 10:10:52 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
[
Oh wait, it's Archeoraptor, isn't it? National Geographic didn't pay for the fossil -- they don't do that in any case. A private collector bought it at a gem show, after it had been smuggled out of China, for something like $80,000. He passed it on to National Geographic for conformation, who, understandablly excited, published before peer rewiew was finished, a huge mistake they are still trying to live down. Both the Journals of Science and Nature rejected the fossil. It's owner gave it to Dr. Xu Xing, who took it back to China and found that even though it was a fraud, it was still a valuable find in that it was comprised of two as yet unamed species.
Do try to avoid using so many acronyms. they tend to be confusing.
Oh wait, it's Archeoraptor, isn't it? National Geographic didn't pay for the fossil -- they don't do that in any case. A private collector bought it at a gem show, after it had been smuggled out of China, for something like $80,000. He passed it on to National Geographic for conformation, who, understandablly excited, published before peer rewiew was finished, a huge mistake they are still trying to live down. Both the Journals of Science and Nature rejected the fossil. It's owner gave it to Dr. Xu Xing, who took it back to China and found that even though it was a fraud, it was still a valuable find in that it was comprised of two as yet unamed species.
(bill) Right, Czerkas paid 80K and then made a deal with NG who displayed the rock as a "true missing link in the complex chain that connects dinosours and birds." So why would Czerkas pay 80K for rock showing transformation from raptor to bird if in fact as CD predicted we would have already unearthed a great abunance of MLs many of which would have shown a raptor/bird creature? Because we don't have the TF in abundance as CD said we would thus by his own admision the TOE is dead. The fact that Czerkas was willing to plop 80k down and NG was willing to lay their rep on the line to showoff a supposed TF proves my point that the macro TOE crowd is still in search for thier holy grail the TF. The equlavant would be for me to pay some chap 80K for a VCR and brag that I am the first to have one when they can be found in great ABUNDANCE at wally mart for $100 all day long. Now if was the only known VCR in the world at the time then that would justify the 80k and that is why they were willing to pay big $$$ and put fake rock on cover. They thought they had a scoop on ML and rushed to press without full examantion becuase TF are not found. Why would Czerkas pay 80k for a rock showing a missing link if these could be found in great ABUNDANCE already as CD said they would be? Why would NG make deals and plaster the "missing link" on their cover as link to raptor/bird in fact puting their rep on the line if MLs showing raptor to bird were old news by now and one could pick up himself a TF at the local NHMs gift shop because they are in such abundance.
References please. Do you really expect me or anyone else to take your word and only your word? That is not done even for the regulars on these boards. And who or what is CD?
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 10:13:14 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Speaking of National Geographic and Dr Xu, here is what has to be one of the neatest proto-bird fossils ever found:
Artist's illustration, of course, but it's a well educated illustration.
Another drawing? 1000's of TFs on display around the world and you have a drawing? (sigh)
Shiftless, arent you? Google 'Microraptor gui', and all will be made clear.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 10:35:36 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
A blast from the past:
quote:
Bill Scott:
you tell me that our DNA cells "program themselves"
to die off and replace themselves with inferior cells
ultimately leading to death. The "reason" (as if blind
random mutation has a reason for anything) for this is
to limit the life span of the individual as not to over-
populate the planet earth.
quote:
Tommy:
I don''t recall saying that. I even went back and reread our previous correspondence, but couldn''t find it there, either. Please retrieve the original email where you found that statement and send it to me to refresh my memory.
Bill is still running with a probable misunderstanding of what Tommy was saying. He is still spouting what he thinks is the gist of what Tommy said without sourcing the original letter so that Tommy could respond. Now, again, he has brought up what he thinks Tommy said and yet to date has not provided anything to support his assertion.
Edited to add:
Tommy did respond to Bills assertion anyway. Turns out Bill lifted it from a letter that was not written to Bill. Bill has chosen to ignore Tommy's response for the sake of this debate, demonstrating that Bill is a liar.
Bill, you haven't changed a bit. If you want to show that Tommy was being silly, provide the original quote with surrounding context. Otherwise I will continue to consider you a one trick pony and a liar to boot.
I know that you will never ever regard any fossil as being transitional no matter how compelling the fossil is. You can't go there, and really, that is fine with me. Your objections will not change a thing.
I had just respnded to an email I got from a friend who was posting with tommy. Once I explained this Tommy he went back and pulled his old email where he states that our cells are "programed for a Reason" That one to this date still makes me chuckle. TOE programing for a reason. Oh that is rich.
And your point is....?
Come to think of it, actually, there is a 'reason', of sorts, albeit a blind one. As I have stated, evolution works by random mutation gradualy adapting a species to suit it's environment. Species survival is the 'reason.'
Now see if you can get your friend to get me to pull that one. Or you can try it yourself. I rather doubt if either of you has the knowledge or even the command of language to pull it off -- if indeed Tommy actually made the statement. I'd like to see the orginal posts.
Y'know, it never fails to amaze me that people can come in here claiming greater knowledge than such scientists as Xu, Horner, Clack, Cuffy, Meert, Morton, et al: people who dedicate their lives to their studies. I think it shows a degree of ignorance even beyond misinformed.
1. What is your version of Reality?
2. With what would you replace evolution in the schools?
3. Why do you avoid these questions like a rat worried about a snake?
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 11:19:27 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
References please. Do you really expect me or anyone else to take your word and only your word? That is not done even for the regulars on these boards. And who or what is CD?
CD = Charlie Darwin
Dinosaur-bird link smashed in fossil flap
By Tim Friend, USA TODAY
The "missing link" dinosaur-bird featured by National Geographic magazine in November is a fake.
Archaeoraptor, the unofficial name of the fossil, is actually two animals pieced together either as an honest mistake made by its discoverers in China or as a breathtaking forgery. The composite, on display at the National Geographic Society in Washington until last week, consists of a birdlike upper torso and the tail and feet of a small raptor. The magazine described it as a "true missing link in the complex chain that connects dinosaurs and birds."
The specimen, smuggled into the USA from China, was found at a gem show last year in Tucson by Stephen Czerkas, owner of the Dinosaur Museum in Monticello, Utah. He purchased it for $80,000 and made a deal with National Geographic to study and publicize it and ultimately return it to China.
How National Geographic finds itself at the center of a scientific embarrassment is a tale as layered as the 120-million-year-old sediment from which the fossil reportedly was unearthed.
"Assuming that all the evidence is in and it is a composite, not since I've been editor has anything happened like this," National Geographic editor Bill Allen told USA TODAY. "At any time prior to publication, if we had been informed of any problem at all, we would have yanked (the article)."
The composite nature of the fossil was not detected by the magazine's team of scientists, and a scientific paper that was submitted to both Science and Nature was never published. As a result, Geographic was on its own with no independent review of the fossil.
Allen says he was notified Dec. 20 by a Chinese doctoral student and member of the Geographic team that the fossil was not authentic. The society modified text on the public display to say questions had been raised about the fossil's origins. National Geographic will publish a correction in its March issue.
But Storrs Olson, curator of birds at the Smithsonian Institution's Natural History Museum and an outspoken skeptic of the bird-dinosaur link, says he warned the magazine in November, when the article was published, that there were serious problems with the fossil. He says he was ignored.
"The problem is, at some point the fossil was known by Geographic to be a fake, and that information was not revealed," Olson says.
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 11:26:19 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
And your point is....?
Come to think of it, actually, there is a 'reason', of sorts, albeit a blind one. As I have stated, evolution works by random mutation gradualy adapting a species to suit it's environment. Species survival is the 'reason.'
Now see if you can get your friend to get me to pull that one. Or you can try it yourself. I rather doubt if either of you has the knowledge or even the command of language to pull it off -- if indeed Tommy actually made the statement. I'd like to see the orginal posts.
Y'know, it never fails to amaze me that people can come in here claiming greater knowledge than such scientists as Xu, Horner, Clack, Cuffy, Meert, Morton, et al: people who dedicate their lives to their studies. I think it shows a degree of ignorance even beyond misinformed.
1. What is your version of Reality?
2. With what would you replace evolution in the schools?
3. Why do you avoid these questions like a rat worried about a snake?
[/quote]
And your point is....?
(Bill) I did not lie.
Come to think of it, actually, there is a 'reason', of sorts, albeit a blind one. As I have stated, evolution works by random mutation gradualy adapting a species to suit it's environment. Species survival is the 'reason.'
(bill) Here is a news flash: random mutation can not reason. randomness creates dis-information always has and always will. Your staminate is laughable. Your saying that random mutations program death for a reason!!!!! HAHAHAHA A reason and to reason requires fore thought and an end result in mind. You are giving these attributes to random mutations? Ha You just like Tommy now have tried to convince me that random genetic mutinous can program for a reason. with an end result in mind. You are off the charts now with your philosophy. Randomness creates dis-information not programs programmed with and for a reason. GIVE ME A BREAK.
Y'know, it never fails to amaze me that people can come in here claiming greater knowledge than such scientists as Xu, Horner, Clack, Cuffy, Meert, Morton, et al: people who dedicate their lives to their studies. I think it shows a degree of ignorance even beyond misinformed.
(bill) Yeah, what was I thinking? No scientist has ever been wrong. (sigh)
1. What is your version of Reality?
(bill) for the 4th or 5th time now. That the fossil record begins with the creatures in status quo and the TF is a myth and the macro TOE crowd will to go great links and major hand waving to cover up this fact when they could just in fact point out all the 1000's of TF on display at some our fine NHMs if in fact Darwinian TOE were true. But instead the play a game of marry go round and ask the doubter to find his own TF display. (sigh)
2. With what would you replace evolution in the schools?
(bill) see above
3. Why do you avoid these questions like a rat worried about a snake?
(bill)Any snakes found on my property are quickly processed into boots, wallets and neck ties. The snakes don't much care for me.
regards Bill
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 11:46:37 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
1. What is your version of Reality?
(bill) for the 4th or 5th time now. That the fossil record begins with the creatures in status quo and the TF is a myth and the macro TOE crowd will to go great links and major hand waving to cover up this fact when they could just in fact point out all the 1000's of TF on display at some our fine NHMs if in fact Darwinian TOE were true. But instead the play a game of marry go round and ask the doubter to find his own TF display. (sigh)
No Bill. You have been given the opportunity to learn something new. You have been directed to a site that is well respect and whose contributors are professionals with many years of experience in various fields of science, including evolution. But since you already have your "Truth", your version of "Reality", you simply dismiss Talk Origins as a propaganda site.
Your arrogance is clear and your ignorance is safe. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
|
|
|
astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 11:59:20 [Permalink]
|
Sigh 
I really think I'm starting to become the classic cynical skeptic. How can people be so deluded and have such a complete and utter lack of comprehension? I'm really starting to lose patience with the wackos of the world. The problem is there appears to actually be millions of them! How did this happen? Sometimes I feel like I'm surrounded by them. How?, How?, How?! I can't listen to the news (except for some BBC or NPR) without saying, "your a moron!" The only positive thing I've seen in awhile was the Dover Trail decision. What a beautiful work of art Judge Jones 139 page decision is. It should become required reading in all public schools. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 12:01:25 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by astropin
Sigh
I really think I'm starting to become the classic cynical skeptic. How can people be so deluded and have such a complete and utter lack of comprehension? I'm really starting to lose patience with the wackos of the world. The problem is there appears to actually be millions of them! How did this happen? Sometimes I feel like I'm surrounded by them. How?, How?, How?! I can't listen to the news (except for some BBC or NPR) without saying, "your a moron!" The only positive thing I've seen in awhile was the Dover Trail decision. What a beautiful work of art Judge Jones 139 page decision is. It should become required reading in all public schools.
Been there, done that... |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
|
Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 12:04:46 [Permalink]
|
quote:
(bill) for the 4th or 5th time now. That the fossil record begins with the creatures in status quo and the TF is a myth and the macro TOE crowd will to go great links and major hand waving to cover up this fact when they could just in fact point out all the 1000's of TF on display at some our fine NHMs if in fact Darwinian TOE were true. But instead the play a game of marry go round and ask the doubter to find his own TF display. (sigh)
OK, if there are no TFs, then why are there no Dinosaurs walking the earth now, but other forms of life are? For that matter, why are the present life forms not found in the same rock strata as Dinosaurs? |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 12:06:05 [Permalink]
|
http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/panderichthys_rhombolepis
Yet another transitional fossil.
Poor Bill. He obviously is defining transitional fossil differently than everyone else on the planet.
He probably expects some chimerical half-mammal half-reptile fossil that shows two different "kinds" fused together and in the process of pulling it's two hales apart to form two new species...
As has been said, Bill is clearly incapable of overcoming his ignorance. His straw-man argument about transitional fossils "not existing" is so inane that is isn't really worth responding to. He does nothing but repeat the same old tired and boring creationist anti-evolution babble that has been clearly refuted decades ago.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 12:08:02 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/panderichthys_rhombolepis
Yet another transitional fossil.
Poor Bill. He obviously is defining transitional fossil differently than everyone else on the planet.
He probably expects some chimerical half-mammal half-reptile fossil that shows two different "kinds" fused together and in the process of pulling it's two hales apart to form two new species...
As has been said, Bill is clearly incapable of overcoming his ignorance. His straw-man argument about transitional fossils "not existing" is so inane that is isn't really worth responding to. He does nothing but repeat the same old tired and boring creationist anti-evolution babble that has been clearly refuted decades ago.
Everyone, except those who think like him. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
