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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 12/22/2005 : 12:09:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
[No Bill. You have been given the opportunity to learn something new. You have been directed to a site that is well respect and whose contributors are professionals with many years of experience in various fields of science, including evolution. But since you already have your "Truth", your version of "Reality", you simply dismiss Talk Origins as a propaganda site.
Your arrogance is clear and your ignorance is safe.
No Bill. You have been given the opportunity to learn something new.
(bill) I have learned something new. That Tommy is not the only one of the SFN crew to be delusional with the premises that blind and random genetic mutations can and do program for a reason with a final outcome in mind based on forethought. That is so laughable that I don't even need to say anymore. This moronic statement speaks volumes for itself.
You have been directed to a site that is well respect and whose contributors are professionals with many years of experience in various fields of science, including evolution.
(bill) Respected by you not me. I asked very simply for 5 favorite TF displays and the location of these displays. If CD was correct we should have TF displays stuffed in the basement of the NHM to make room for all the new ones coming. Yet when asked for the location of a display only links to cyberspace are given. Smoke and mirrors continues, how sad.
But since you already have your "Truth", your version of "Reality", you simply dismiss Talk Origins as a propaganda site.
(bill) Why can't any of you just give me some locations to some TF displays. Stop reaching in your bag of tricks and spouting off 50 different links to cyberspace and just speak for yourself. If you are up with all your distraction links you can just respond in your own word with a summoned up version and the whole thread will roll smoother.
Your arrogance is clear and your ignorance is safe.
(bill) Thanks and so is yours.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 12:21:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Scott...
(bill) for the 4th or 5th time now. That the fossil record begins with the creatures in status quo and the TF is a myth and the macro TOE crowd will to go great links and major hand waving to cover up this fact when they could just in fact point out all the 1000's of TF on display at some our fine NHMs if in fact Darwinian TOE were true. But instead the play a game of marry go round and ask the doubter to find his own TF display.
The fossil records don't begin with creatures in their current form, and for you to continue to make that claim is a display of either absolute ignorance or absolute stupidity. Nobody is covering up anything about the theory of evolution. The fact that you have your head shoved so far up your into your ostrich hole doesn't mean the mounds of evidence that support the theory simply don't exist. And speaking of merry-go-round, you're the one who continues to demand evidence, the same evidence we continue to provide, over and over. Your refusal or inability to understand it does not constitute a lack of its existence.
Going back to the top of the thread, you asked why you should be expected to pay your taxes to support a school system that teaches legitimate intelligent science. Here's the easy answer: You're an idiot. If we left the teaching of your children to you they'd likely grow up to be as misinformed, unable to think rationally, and detached from reality as you are. I can just barely believe someone can look as stupid as you look and still be a functioning member of society.
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 12:24:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
[url] He does nothing but repeat the same old tired and boring creationist anti-evolution babble that has been clearly refuted decades ago.
And all you do is repeat the same old tired links to cyberspace instead of directing us to a real live TF display. Your willingness to shuck and jive to any measure to protect your sacred cow is very dedicated I will say that. Translation: You have great faith in your philosophy.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 12:35:19 [Permalink]
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Hey it turns out that on today's Pharyngula there's a discussion of a fossil species which clearly shows an intermediate stage in the modification of fins and their internal support structures into limbs and their infrastructure. I found it clear enough that even I, an electronics geek with no biological training, could understand it:
http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/panderichthys_rhombolepis/#continu
quote:
In the shift from an aquatic to a fully terrestrial life, the limbs and their supporting pectoral and pelvic girdles had to undergo major changes. In fish, the pectoral girdles are coupled to the skull, while the pelvic girdles are small and 'floating' in the musculature. To bear the animal's weight, the pectoral girdles lost their connection to the skull, and both became thicker, stronger, and more closely bound to the axial skeleton. The fins themselves had to change from a fan of slender fin-rays to more solid load-bearing digits. In Panderichthys, we see a mixture of these changes in process.
As for Bill scott's demands, my personal rate for jumping through arbitrary, meaningless, moving goalposts is $20,000 per hour. The $10,000 "belligerent ignoramus" surcharge may apply. 
edit: the word I hung fire on was "modification". |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
| Edited by - ktesibios on 12/22/2005 12:57:54 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 12:43:18 [Permalink]
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In 7 pages generated overnight there isn't much to add here but one thing. Evolutionary science is successful. Evolutionary science has given us genetic science. It started with breeding, plants and animals. Like it or not, side effects and setbacks or not, selective breeding has increased the food supply on the planet and the ease with which we harvest it. (One need not gather seeds in the forest when one can plant and farm and breed a plant which the seeds are bigger, more in number, and easier to harvest from the plant.)
From there, the door opened and now we have a very clear understanding of how random processes and the genetic code originated and how it works. You can continue to argue the god of the gaps that we haven't solved the transition from inorganic to organic. There is plenty of evidence it occurred but it is certainly futile to present that here.
I should point instead, to the fact that through genetic science we can and have now been manipulating the genetic makeup of organisms, we have been using our discoveries about the genetic makeup of organisms to understand and find cures for a multitude of diseases from cancer to infections, and, our knowledge of genetic science is uncovering everything from how to get from DNA to the protein it codes for, to the structure that protein eventually becomes, and, to the life form that structure eventually becomes a part of.
How, if this is merely a philosophy do you explain the successes and how would you manage a child's science education without evolution or with the approach that evolution isn't certain?
ID relies on the premise that there is such a thing as irreducible complexity. Genetic science has shown that not to be the case. And while you can go on and on denying that fact, discoveries are being made daily that explain how one gets from a single cell to an eye, how the fetus is triggered to grow an arm or a leg or for other organisms, an antennae, and, how one gets from an earlier primate to the species homo sapien as well as how one gets from a fish to a salamander, one genetic change at a time. So are you suggesting we ignore those discoveries?
You can personally ignore them, but the science is there. Not the philosophy, not people's beliefs, but the physical science being used everyday to further our knowledge of the Universe. If the science was wrong, the successes wouldn't be there. The successes are there. So now what do you do? Cling to the past before we knew this stuff? Keep your children in the dark about new discoveries in genetic research? |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 12/22/2005 12:46:22 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 12:46:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Scott...
(bill) for the 4th or 5th time now. That the fossil record begins with the creatures in status quo and the TF is a myth and the macro TOE crowd will to go great links and major hand waving to cover up this fact when they could just in fact point out all the 1000's of TF on display at some our fine NHMs if in fact Darwinian TOE were true. But instead the play a game of marry go round and ask the doubter to find his own TF display.
The fossil records don't begin with creatures in their current form, and for you to continue to make that claim is a display of either absolute ignorance or absolute stupidity. Nobody is covering up anything about the theory of evolution. The fact that you have your head shoved so far up your into your ostrich hole doesn't mean the mounds of evidence that support the theory simply don't exist. And speaking of merry-go-round, you're the one who continues to demand evidence, the same evidence we continue to provide, over and over. Your refusal or inability to understand it does not constitute a lack of its existence.
Going back to the top of the thread, you asked why you should be expected to pay your taxes to support a school system that teaches legitimate intelligent science. Here's the easy answer: You're an idiot. If we left the teaching of your children to you they'd likely grow up to be as misinformed, unable to think rationally, and detached from reality as you are. I can just barely believe someone can look as stupid as you look and still be a functioning member of society.
The fossil records don't begin with creatures in their current form, and for you to continue to make that claim is a display of either absolute ignorance or absolute stupidity. Nobody is covering up anything about the theory of evolution. The fact that you have your head shoved so far up your into your ostrich hole doesn't mean the mounds of evidence that support the theory simply don't exist. And speaking of merry-go-round, you're the one who continues to demand evidence, the same evidence we continue to provide, over and over. Your refusal or inability to understand it does not constitute a lack of its existence.
(bill) wrong. I ask for the location of a real live TF display at any NHM of the 1000's that we should have on display. I get back links to cyberspace. I ask again for locations of TF on display I get back links to cyberspace. I ask for locations to TF on display and I get back links to cyberspace. It is almost as if the SFN crowd knows that TF do not exist in NHMs.
Going back to the top of the thread, you asked why you should be expected to pay your taxes to support a school system that teaches legitimate intelligent science.
(bill) wrong again. I asked why my tax dollar should fund philosophy. Go back and reread.
Here's the easy answer: You're an idiot. If we left the teaching of your children to you they'd likely grow up to be as misinformed, unable to think rationally, and detached from reality as you are. I can just barely believe someone can look as stupid as you look and still be a functioning member of society.
(bill) Yeah, what am I thinking? On a percentage the public schools do a great job graduating ignorant miss-informed kids opps I mean fine up and coming students who can compete with the best in the world. Yeah right! Most public schools are a joke and produce morons. It really is no skin off my back that the public school preaches evolutionary philosophy as my kids don't attend the public schools and 90% of the kids that do either can't read the TOE or don't pay attention anyway. You can teach them Darwinian evolution all day long and when they leave the class room they have not heard a word you said. (sad but true) Private and home schooled kids toast public school kids in test scores all day long. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 13:12:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
In 7 pages generated overnight there isn't much to add here but one thing. Evolutionary science is successful. Evolutionary science has given us genetic science. It started with breeding, plants and animals. Like it or not, side effects and setbacks or not, selective breeding has increased the food supply on the planet and the ease with which we harvest it. (One need not gather seeds in the forest when one can plant and farm and breed a plant which the seeds are bigger, more in number, and easier to harvest from the plant.)
From there, the door opened and now we have a very clear understanding of how random processes and the genetic code originated and how it works. You can continue to argue the god of the gaps that we haven't solved the transition from inorganic to organic. There is plenty of evidence it occurred but it is certainly futile to present that here.
I should point instead, to the fact that through genetic science we can and have now been manipulating the genetic makeup of organisms, we have been using our discoveries about the genetic makeup of organisms to understand and find cures for a multitude of diseases from cancer to infections, and, our knowledge of genetic science is uncovering everything from how to get from DNA to the protein it codes for, to the structure that protein eventually becomes, and, to the life form that structure eventually becomes a part of.
How, if this is merely a philosophy do you explain the successes and how would you manage a child's science education without evolution or with the approach that evolution isn't certain?
ID relies on the premise that there is such a thing as irreducible complexity. Genetic science has shown that not to be the case. And while you can go on and on denying that fact, discoveries are being made daily that explain how one gets from a single cell to an eye, how the fetus is triggered to grow an arm or a leg or for other organisms, an antennae, and, how one gets from an earlier primate to the species homo sapien as well as how one gets from a fish to a salamander, one genetic change at a time. So are you suggesting we ignore those discoveries?
You can personally ignore them, but the science is there. Not the philosophy, not people's beliefs, but the physical science being used everyday to further our knowledge of the Universe. If the science was wrong, the successes wouldn't be there. The successes are there. So now what do you do? Cling to the past before we knew this stuff? Keep your children in the dark about new discoveries in genetic research?
[quote]Originally posted by beskeptigal
In 7 pages generated overnight there isn't much to add here but one thing. Evolutionary science is successful. Evolutionary science has given us genetic science. It started with breeding, plants and animals. Like it or not, side effects and setbacks or not, selective breeding has increased the food supply on the planet and the ease with which we harvest it. (One need not gather seeds in the forest when one can plant and farm and breed a plant which the seeds are bigger, more in number, and easier to harvest from the plant.)
From there, the door opened and now we have a very clear understanding of how random processes and the genetic code originated and how it works. You can continue to argue the god of the gaps that we haven't solved the transition from inorganic to organic. There is plenty of evidence it occurred but it is certainly futile to present that here.
I should point instead, to the fact that through genetic science we can and have now been manipulating the genetic makeup of organisms, we have been using our discoveries about the genetic makeup of organisms to understand and find cures for a multitude of diseases from cancer to infections, and, our knowledge of genetic science is uncovering everything from how to get from DNA to the protein it codes for, to the structure that protein eventually becomes, and, to the life form that structure eventually becomes a part of.
(bill) all very interesting but so what. When they can alter the genetic makeup of lizard to produce birds then we can talk.
How, if this is merely a philosophy do you explain the successes and how would you manage a child's science education without evolution or with the approach that evolution isn't certain?
(bill) by telling them the truth that the TOE is theory at best and a fraud at worst.
ID relies on the premise that there is such a thing as irreducible complexity. Genetic science has shown that not to be the case. And while you can go on and on denying that fact, discoveries are being made daily that explain how one gets from a single cell to an eye, how the fetus is triggered to grow an arm or a leg or for other organisms, an antennae, and, how one gets from an earlier primate to the species homo sapien as well as how one gets from a fish to a salamander, one genetic change at a time. So are you suggesting we ignore those discoveries?
(bill) Why don't we see this in the FR?
Keep your children in the dark about new discoveries in genetic research?
(bill)Don't hide them from genetic research just TOE philosophy or send them to public schools where 2+2= whatever little Johnny says it equals because we can't mark his test wrong or it might upset his fragile ego. Then we can teach him molecules to man evolution if he can read the text and does not shoot the teacher and then we will give him a degree a pat on the back and off he goes to the real world. And people wonder why our public schools are creating a generation of illiterates?!?!?!?!
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 13:12:24 [Permalink]
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Here, for example, is an abstract on a paper about the recent genetic research on the potential bird flu pandemic.quote:
Abstract
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Influenza A virus specificity for the host is mediated by the viral surface
glycoprotein hemagglutinin (HA), which binds to receptors containing
glycans with terminal sialic acids. Avian viruses preferentially bind to
a2-3-linked sialic acids on receptors of intestinal epithelial cells,
whereas human viruses are specific for the a2-6 linkage on epithelial cells
of the lungs and upper respiratory tract. To define the receptor
preferences of a number of human and avian H1 and H3 viruses, including the
1918 H1N1 pandemic strains, their hemagglutinins were analyzed using a
recently described glycan array. The array, which contains 200
carbohydrates and glycoproteins, not only revealed clear differentiation of
receptor preferences for a2-3 and/or a2-6 sialic acid linkage, but could
also detect fine differences in HA specificity, such as preferences for
fucosylation, sulfation and sialylation at positions 2 (Gal) and 3 (GlcNAc,
GalNAc) of the terminal trisaccharide. For the two 1918 HA variants, the
South Carolina (SC) HA (with Asp190, Asp225) bound exclusively a2-6
receptors, while the New York (NY) variant, which differed only by one
residue (Gly225), had mixed a2-6/a2-3 specificity, especially for sulfated
oligosaccharides. Only one mutation of the NY variant (Asp190Glu) was
sufficient to revert the HA receptor preference to that of classical avian
strains. Thus, the species barrier, as defined by the receptor specificity
preferences of 1918 human viruses compared to likely avian virus
progenitors, can be circumvented by changes at only 2 positions in the HA
receptor binding site. The glycan array thus provides highly detailed
profiles of influenza receptor specificity that can be used to map the
evolution of new human pathogenic strains, such as the H5N1 avian influenza.
I recommend you go to the page and read the whole exchange but if bird flu is to be discussed take it to another thread.
Instead, I would point out that the mechanism for the evolution of the H5N1 bird flu to evolve into the human flu is being studied here. And, the discoveries of how this bird flu can change into a new human flu, a species jump, will allow those monitoring the genetic changes in the current bird pandemic more closely. Instead of waiting for the human pandemic to read its head, we will be able to see the very specific genetic mutation that precedes the species jump. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 13:17:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Here, for example, is an abstract on a paper about the recent genetic research on the potential bird flu pandemic.quote:
Abstract
-------
Influenza A virus specificity for the host is mediated by the viral surface
glycoprotein hemagglutinin (HA), which binds to receptors containing
glycans with terminal sialic acids. Avian viruses preferentially bind to
a2-3-linked sialic acids on receptors of intestinal epithelial cells,
whereas human viruses are specific for the a2-6 linkage on epithelial cells
of the lungs and upper respiratory tract. To define the receptor
preferences of a number of human and avian H1 and H3 viruses, including the
1918 H1N1 pandemic strains, their hemagglutinins were analyzed using a
recently described glycan array. The array, which contains 200
carbohydrates and glycoproteins, not only revealed clear differentiation of
receptor preferences for a2-3 and/or a2-6 sialic acid linkage, but could
also detect fine differences in HA specificity, such as preferences for
fucosylation, sulfation and sialylation at positions 2 (Gal) and 3 (GlcNAc,
GalNAc) of the terminal trisaccharide. For the two 1918 HA variants, the
South Carolina (SC) HA (with Asp190, Asp225) bound exclusively a2-6
receptors, while the New York (NY) variant, which differed only by one
residue (Gly225), had mixed a2-6/a2-3 specificity, especially for sulfated
oligosaccharides. Only one mutation of the NY variant (Asp190Glu) was
sufficient to revert the HA receptor preference to that of classical avian
strains. Thus, the species barrier, as defined by the receptor specificity
preferences of 1918 human viruses compared to likely avian virus
progenitors, can be circumvented by changes at only 2 positions in the HA
receptor binding site. The glycan array thus provides highly detailed
profiles of influenza receptor specificity that can be used to map the
evolution of new human pathogenic strains, such as the H5N1 avian influenza.
I recommend you go to the page and read the whole exchange but if bird flu is to be discussed take it to another thread.
Instead, I would point out that the mechanism for the evolution of the H5N1 bird flu to evolve into the human flu is being studied here. And, the discoveries of how this bird flu can change into a new human flu, a species jump, will allow those monitoring the genetic changes in the current bird pandemic more closely. Instead of waiting for the human pandemic to read its head, we will be able to see the very specific genetic mutation that precedes the species jump.
Yes this great that we have the understanding to combat these mutations but this in no way relates to raptors turning into birds. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 13:42:54 [Permalink]
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I have an image of a man standing with his fingers stuck in his ears yelling "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA"....
We are casting pearls before swine, I'm afraid. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 13:53:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Troll Scott...
I have learned something new. That Tommy is not the only one of the SFN crew to be delusional with the premises that blind and random genetic mutations can and do program for a reason with a final outcome in mind based on forethought.
Nobody here has ever suggested anything even remotely like that. You are in desperate need of much improvement in your reading comprehension skills. For the most part you have presented yourself as a complete idiot. But the possibility does exist that you simply can't understand what you read. I'm still willing to accept that you might suffer from cognitive dissonance. Any way about it the fact remains, you don't have the slightest idea about how evolution works.
But, to humor you, I'll pose a question. You clearly believe life exists. You clearly believe that life did not come to its current form through the process of evolution. What would you suggest is the process that is responsible for bringing about the state of life on Earth as we know it today? Magic?quote:
Yes this great that we have the understanding to combat these mutations but this in no way relates to raptors turning into birds.
Wow, you are willing to acknowledge the existence of mutations. There may be a glimmer of light at the end of your tunnel. Oh wait, what was I thinking? You don't have the ability to understand the kinds of time frames and numbers of generations necessary for small mutations to accumulate causing major changes in life forms that manifest in what we know of as evolution. Sorry to keep bringing in ideas that are far too complicated for you to grasp. 
So back to my previous question: What would you suggest is the process that is responsible for bringing about the state of life on Earth as we know it today?
Edited for spelling |
| Edited by - GeeMack on 12/22/2005 14:00:39 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 14:02:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
...
Yes this great that we have the understanding to combat these mutations but this in no way relates to raptors turning into birds.
Yes it does. Sadly, you seem to think we got to this point in evolutionary and genetic science without having figured out the basics like the dinosaur to bird step.
You have already ignored all the facts about raptors to birds offered here by other members, so I saw no point in going there. if you're interested there is a great web site showing the evolutionary steps from the earliest life forms to every species on the planet today.
Clearly, it bothers you that your Bible is wrong. Too bad, because it is. Got any evidence praying cures cancer? I have evidence genetic science, based solely on evolution led to many cancer cures. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 12/22/2005 14:02:48 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 14:08:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
I ask for the location of a real live TF display at any NHM of the 1000's that we should have on display. I get back links to cyberspace. I ask again for locations of TF on display I get back links to cyberspace. I ask for locations to TF on display and I get back links to cyberspace.
Liar. You were also told that when push comes to shove, every fossil is transitional. That you chose to ignore this, and instead harp on a fictional version of evolution which allows you to feel morally superior is not our problem. No, that particular character flaw of yours will be discussed by you and God, I'm sure.quote:
It is almost as if the SFN crowd knows that TF do not exist in NHMs.
Transitional fossils, as you define them, do not exist in museums. Trasitional fossils, as biologists define them, exist in every museum which has at least one fossilized creature. We have no reason to prefer your twisted version over what Darwin (and modern-day scientists) actually meant.quote:
I asked why my tax dollar should fund philosophy. Go back and reread.
And that's been answered, by me. The First Amendment doesn't prohibit government endorsement of a philosophy, it prohibits the endorsement of religion. That you think the two words are synonymous is also not our problem. If you don't like it, write your Congresspeople to amend the Constitution, and/or write to Webster's to get the definitions of the words changed. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 14:14:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
I have an image of a man standing with his fingers stuck in his ears yelling "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA"....
We are casting pearls before swine, I'm afraid.
You must be looking in a mirror... |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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