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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
 Posted - 01/05/2006 : 12:57:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
I agree with Dave, a shorter stay on Earth for the faithful should be welcomed.
Unless you're a cow, of course. (Reminds me. While playing Trivial Pursuit a good few years back, the question "What are aircraft in India not allowed to fly over?" came up. The real answer was the Taj Mahal, but the girl answering didn't know and chanced "cows". Would make for interesting flight patters, methinks.) |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 05:16:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by spacecadet
On a personal note, do you know what really saddens and sickens me about this entire ( 2 page) thread that I just got through reading?
Instead of having any sense of pity or pathos or simply having the common decency to respect the loss of other people's loved ones in such a tragic event, you people have quite rudely and disrespectfully chosen this event to continue your personal vendetta for or against the existence of God.
In the 50's people would have sent flowers and cards of condolensce.
Here it is the year 2006 and we have rudely and callously drug up such a discussion as this with no regard for the loss or pain of the families.
Sela'
There is a 100% chance that you wont get out of here alive, whether you are a believer or not.
Show the dead and their families some dignity.
I wouldn't put it quite as harshly as Dave but you are jumping to the wrong conclusions here. I reread my post and I can see how it might have sounded. But the truth of the matter is I would have written a longer post instead of shortening it to "whoops" but I was tired and didn't have the energy and that was the short version. I did not mean it to be funny.
Of course we have compassion for the men who died and their families' loss. That doesn't mean I wasn't struck by the overwhelming "praise god"s that were in every interview after the false news of the men's survival. The town was centered in the church. They went on and on about having had their prayers answered. And then, it turned out not to be true. Why shouldn't that be worthwhile discussing? It was a big deal in that town and to those people. It was part of the event.
What has Robertson said about these people? That they didn't pray hard enough? That they sinned somewhere and it's their fault? After all he's on TV claiming God gave Ariel Sharon a stroke. Did he wait until a better time to make such a callous statement?
I'm sorry you read the wrong emotion into my post at least. I hope you'll stay longer and see what this forum is really like before making a judgment.
BTW, don't mind Dave, he's a bit testy until he gets to know you better. |
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 14:06:27 [Permalink]
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Dude asked a question in a framework in which God existed. I answered the question in the same framework.
Mack:
quote:
You tell them about the kind of judgment you have passed on their deceased loved ones. You'd be lucky to escape with your life. But you wouldn't dare, because you're a pussy.
That wouldn't be the first thing that I would tell them because that would not be conducive to them receiving more faith.
quote:
You talk here like you're some kind of protected angel, ...
I do admit, my family seems to have less troubles than others that I know. But, we're not perfect.
quote:
or like you have some divine insight about good and evil and your god's means and motives for inflicting punishment,
If Yahweh truly exists, then yes, I have insight to his motives.
quote:
but you don't have the balls to go tell those people in West Virginia that you have deemed their dead miners to be sinners.
Would you like me to contact them? I'd start out with condolences.
Dave:
quote:
Why? Wouldn't the truly faithful and repentant happily welcome a short stay here on Earth, and everlasting life in Heaven?
I'm certain that they would welcome it, but it is better to remain on earth and tell other people about the gospel so that they can go to heaven too.
quote:
Why? Is there some Commandment I'm not aware of which says "Thou shalt not die in an accident?" Do you have any evidence that any of the 12 dead people went to hell?
The vast majority of holy people in the Bible are recorded as either dying of old age or dying while accomplishing some purpose. One exception is Elisha, who died of a sickness. I'm not saying that these people went to hell, I'm just saying that these people apparently didn't have their lives right with Jesus. I could be wrong, but the circumstances are on my side. I haven't made any conclusions, I'm only hypothesizing.
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 14:28:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
quote:
Why? Wouldn't the truly faithful and repentant happily welcome a short stay here on Earth, and everlasting life in Heaven?
I'm certain that they would welcome it, but it is better to remain on earth and tell other people about the gospel so that they can go to heaven too.
So those "unrepentant" miners must have had no chance of redemption whatsoever. Otherwise, wouldn't God have protected them so that they might have repented later in life? If God wants more converts, then killing off people early - unless He is aware they will never be saved - is not the answer. And if it's the case that God knows who's going to repent and who won't, that throws the idea of free will out the window.quote:
The vast majority of holy people in the Bible are recorded as either dying of old age or dying while accomplishing some purpose. One exception is Elisha, who died of a sickness.
What about the vast majority of everyday people, who weren't important enough to be recorded in God's Big Book, but who were extraordinarily devout, anyway?quote:
I'm not saying that these people went to hell, I'm just saying that these people apparently didn't have their lives right with Jesus.
So, you think it's unlikely that God actually called the miners into Heaven because He required their services there? Whole lot of hubris there, Hippy. Only God can judge those people.quote:
I could be wrong, but the circumstances are on my side.
What "circumstances?" Have you investigated the devotion of any one of those people to God?quote:
I haven't made any conclusions, I'm only hypothesizing.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 14:39:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
The vast majority of holy people in the Bible are recorded as either dying of old age or dying while accomplishing some purpose. One exception is Elisha, who died of a sickness.
You assume everything written about said holy people is accurate.
quote:
I'm not saying that these people went to hell, I'm just saying that these people apparently didn't have their lives right with Jesus. I could be wrong, but the circumstances are on my side. I haven't made any conclusions, I'm only hypothesizing.
What a load of bullshit. You don't know fuck about those people. Where do you get off making such a judgemental statement as that? You and Pat Robertson should get together some time. I'm sure you guys could entertain each other with your delusions for days on end. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 15:46:27 [Permalink]
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I agree with the others in this thread that think you're a tiny minded judgmental jerk, hippy4christ. There actually is evidence that these miners "made their peace with their maker". Apparently at least a few were quite devout. Unless you're going to back pedal now and make an even grander claim that their maker is wrong and your maker is right, then I think we'd all agree, even you must, that you're completely wrong about your judgment.quote:
W.Va. Miner'S Last Note: "I just went to sleep"...
Martin Toler managed to scrawl those words in a last message to his family as he lay dying in a West Virginia coal mine this week, one of 12 miners who perished after an explosion on Monday.
"Tell all I see them on the other side," he wrote.
And yes, I do want you to go out there to West Virginia and tell those people you're sorry their relatives and loved ones died, but that you think they weren't worthy in the eyes of your god to continue living. I think those people would kick your sorry bigoted ass all over their town, and you'd deserve every moment of it.
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 15:59:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm not saying that these people went to hell, I'm just saying that these people apparently didn't have their lives right with Jesus. I could be wrong, but the circumstances are on my side. I haven't made any conclusions, I'm only hypothesizing.
It's starting to smell like Fred Phelps around here. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 17:12:44 [Permalink]
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Off topic but on a related note:
quote:
Famous TV Psychic Makes Miner Mistake
Controversial TV psychic Sylvia Browne made a major mistake about the West Virginia miners tragedy on a Tuesday night radio show.
I always like it when psychics are asked, ‘If you know so much, how come you haven't won the lottery or cashed in big in Vegas or in stocks?'
Maybe Browne was thinking the same thing when she was a guest on George Noory's live syndicated radio show, "Coast to Coast" at around 3 a.m. on Wednesday. She had the bad luck to be commenting on a developing news story — the mining disaster in West Virginia —- which took a surprise turn.
That tragic twist — that the wrong announcement had been made about the miners' fates — turned out to be even worse for Browne. Just following the transcript of what occurred, it's clear the psychic had no idea what had happened to the miners, though she claimed to have been right on top of it.
It seems that certain total assholes have lost no time in gleefully trying to take advantage of this situation, and I don't think it will end soon.
As I recall, Terry Shivao (sp?) was put in her unfortunate condition by oxygen depravation to the brain, and the lone survivor of the mine explosion suffers from the same. If he ends up like her, in a vegetative state, the situation will go from genuine shock and grief to maudlin posturing, to a downright appalling display of suck-up-to-the-religious-right behavior as it did with Mrs. Shivao.
I hope that I am wrong, but I fear that I am not.
And if Browne's so fucking on top of it, how come she failed to predict the explosion? Considering the conditions at that mine -- 200 + safety violations -- it should have been an easy one.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 01:27:52 [Permalink]
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The fact they moved the survivor back to his local hospital and that we haven't heard much except that he does have brain damage is an indication it probably is severe. It's too bad.
He's likely off the ventilator and not awake. And unlike Derek with his injury, O2 deprivation and CO poisoning cause equivalent damage. So if the guy isn't awake soon, he isn't likely going to be ever. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 01/09/2006 01:30:25 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 07:04:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Dude asked a question in a framework in which God existed. I answered the question in the same framework.
Mack:
quote:
You tell them about the kind of judgment you have passed on their deceased loved ones. You'd be lucky to escape with your life. But you wouldn't dare, because you're a pussy.
That wouldn't be the first thing that I would tell them because that would not be conducive to them receiving more faith.
This assumes they do not have much faith or the right kind of faith. How egocentric of you. I do have two questions for you. Were you born and raised in the city? Have you ever lived in the country?
I have lived in the country. A great majority of the people there have deeply held religious beliefs. They are usually quite avid church goers and true believers. Even moreso when the believers take highly hazardous jobs such as farming and coal mining. When the possibility of death and dismemberment is high on a daily basis, it tends to strenghten the bonds of religion on the believer.
quote:
quote:
You talk here like you're some kind of protected angel, ...
I do admit, my family seems to have less troubles than others that I know. But, we're not perfect.
quote:
or like you have some divine insight about good and evil and your god's means and motives for inflicting punishment,
If Yahweh truly exists, then yes, I have insight to his motives.
So you're saying here that you have an inside track into the mind of God. Something Biblical keeps resurfacing. Ah, yes. "Pride goeth before the fall."
quote:
Dave:
quote:
Why? Is there some Commandment I'm not aware of which says "Thou shalt not die in an accident?" Do you have any evidence that any of the 12 dead people went to hell?
The vast majority of holy people in the Bible are recorded as either dying of old age or dying while accomplishing some purpose. One exception is Elisha, who died of a sickness. I'm not saying that these people went to hell, I'm just saying that these people apparently didn't have their lives right with Jesus. I could be wrong, but the circumstances are on my side. I haven't made any conclusions, I'm only hypothesizing.
Hippy
No, the circumstances are not on your side. You have made a blanket judgement of people and focused purely on the fact that the died. You make the assumption that your God would have saved the faithful just like the children in the fiery furnace. You think that somehow you have special mystical knowledge which puts you in a place to judge the dead. You don't. This is an egotistical way for you to claim superiority over 12 anonymous dead people. You don't know the first thing about them, but you are more than willing to trot out a judgement of them as being not pious enough.
I repeat. What a load of bullshit.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2006 : 19:31:53 [Permalink]
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There has been another unfortunate accident in the West Virginia mining industry which has taken the lives of a couple more workers. It seems to be generating some needed attention to the issue of safety policies and procedures in the industry.quote:
Two W.Virginia Miners Dead; Governor Vows Action...
West Virginia (Reuters) - Two miners trapped in a West Virginia coal mine that had caught fire were found dead on Saturday, and officials, angered also by 12 other mine deaths this month, vowed to make the industry safer.
"We found the two miners that we were looking for for the past 40-some hours. ... Unfortunately, we don't have a positive outcome," said Doug Conaway, West Virginia's mine safety chief.
This reminds me of some unfinished business from our discussion of the previous accident...quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ...
Would you like me to contact them? I'd start out with condolences.
To which I replied...quote:
Originally posted by me...
And yes, I do want you to go out there to West Virginia and tell those people you're sorry their relatives and loved ones died, but that you think they weren't worthy in the eyes of your god to continue living. I think those people would kick your sorry bigoted ass all over their town, and you'd deserve every moment of it.
So how 'bout it, hippy4christ? Have you worked up the nerve to go to West Virginia and tell a lot of apparently very religious people that your terrorist imaginary pal doomed their friends and relatives to die because they hadn't sought salvation according to some arbitrary rules of judgment you've set?quote:
From the article...
Government officials, still seething over the Sago tragedy that is now under investigation, pledged on Saturday to tighten rules that protect workers toiling in vast coal mines sometimes 1,000 feet underground.
West Virginia Gov. Joe Manchin said he would introduce legislation that would ensure rescue teams get to accident scenes quicker, a second bill to employ "existing technology" to electronically track miners, and a third to mandate that reserve oxygen stations be established in mines.
"If I have anything to do with it, if I am able with every breath in my body to make the changes that need to be made ... (I'll) make sure that every brave miner, every brave worker in this state knows they're in the safest conditions humanly possible," he said.
And since some people believe in nonsense like the following...quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ...
I wouldn't be surprised if it was punishment, but what is more likely is that the explosion wasn't so much punishment as it was a lack of protection. For instance:
Luk 13:4-5 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
In general, bad things happening to people are not direct, supernatural punishments, but are simply natural or man-made occurences which unrepentant people are not protected from.
The accident was sad, although I do wish that people would stop the practice ignoring Christ most of the time, calling on Him for help only when you need Him, and then blaming Him when help doesn't show up.
... wouldn't it be silly to consider mining safety reforms, all that time, all that trouble, all that money, when all those people really need to protect them from the wrath of an invisible terrorist god is more repentance and more salvation? Amen and Hallelujah!
What say ye hippy4christ, are you ready to tell Governor Manchin that it's those unrepentant people's own darn fault their pitiful unrepentant lives got snuffed out by your imaginary buddy, and that his concern for mine safety is a waste of effort? Do you have the guts to do your pseudo-righteous judgemental preachin' out there in real life where someone might give you a not-so-pseudo bloody nose for it?
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