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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 01/19/2006 : 07:18:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Love can't be proven scientifically,
Chemical reactions in the brain.
Next. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2006 : 11:52:12 [Permalink]
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skepticpsychic wrote:
quote:
Halfmooner, thanks for your thoughtful post. It's interesting that the behavior you describe is not limited to people with conspiracy theories or schizophrenia. I have experienced behavior like that in skeptics here in this forum:
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5483
Thanks for your good vibes. Indeed, there are all types of personalities and styles of communication in every group of people.
But, looking at the thread you reference, I think you have confused vigorous and quite civil debate with Sam's style of using the "Gish Gallop."
By posting here, you picked an infamous nest of skeptical vipers. You began a thread by introducing yourself as a "practicing psychic" but an open-minded person. You asked the Forum members for their restraint in their replies to you, then yourself immediately lashed out at James Randi, who is in my opinion one of the most rational, decent, and fair persons now living, and a hero to most skeptics. Intentionally or not, you were being provocative. (Not that this is a bad thing to be.)
In my opinion, the skeptics in the Forum might have been forgiven had they become angry. They might have called you for flying false (or at least confused) colors. On the very face of it, "skeptic" and "psychic" are clear contradictions, at least in the mind of any skeptic.
The Forum participants might have treated you very harshly. Instead, I am struck by the fact that these skeptics on the whole treated you quite fairly, while not sparing those ideas you expressed which they saw as demonstrable hogwash. They generally refrained from calling you nasty names, or using other ad hominem tactics. They avoid such tactics precisely because they are skeptics, and know how destructive such methods are to rational discussion, especially since they are historically the main tactics used against skeptics.
From my reading of the Forum and your own admission, you did not use the same kind of fair and logical debate that the skeptics generally employed in that Forum:
http://www.writingup.com/skepticpsychic/skeptic_psychic_debunks_self
It was right and proper for you to make the retractions you made, and it reflects well upon your character. It's a very skeptical characteristic, to correct one's own errors.
[I had originally made an unfounded negative comment right here, which, upon further research, I now retract. I've now deleted that paragraph, and have added the two paragraphs and one link immediately above. My apologies to skepticpsychic and indeed to anyone who read the comment, which was based on an honest, but boneheadedly stupid misreading I'd made. I'm glad I at least caught this one before anyone complained.]
I don't doubt that you honestly believe in your psychic powers. If you wish to convince skeptics of the reality of your psychic abilities, I hope you will consider taking on James Randi's challenge. If you win that million dollar prize, you will have convinced me. In my personal opinion, nobody who refuses Randi's challenge should continue to profess supernatural powers, period.
quote:
Perhaps its important to remember than when dealing with people who have suffered mental trauma and are actually mentally ill, sometimes the adversarial approach only provokes the insanity. Maybe with some people, using even sweet skepticism is ineffective because of their condition.
I didn't make it clear in my postings, but Sam is very far from being a fragile individual. Despite what I think of as his paranoid world view, he doesn't think that the vast conspiracies he believes in are aimed at victimizing him in particular, for instance. He can take contradiction without anger, though not without replying with his massive, baffling counterarguments. He may or may not be schizoid, but he's emotionally sound. In effect, Sam is a decent, sane, functioning, and even caring member of human society, except when formally engaged on one of his bizarre rants. Please don't be overly concerned for Sam's well-being; it was me who was crushed in that two-hour exchange! ; ) Sam himself is extremely tough and hard-headed, and will probably survive totally unchanged for many decades to come.
quote:
...it's inviting to slide the conversation to subjection perception, diversionary emotional issue and outright lying for the sake of not having to lose
Exactly! These are points that anyone entering a discussion with Skeptics (or anyone else) should always bear in mind.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/19/2006 14:37:13 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2006 : 21:21:23 [Permalink]
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Mab said:
quote:
That's how the "Gish Gallop" works. Flood the debate with spurious assertions in such a stream that it is impossible to addess even a fraction of them logically and factually.
In other words, if they can't dazzle you with brilliance, they will baffle you with bullshit, eh? |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2006 : 21:31:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Mab said:
quote:
That's how the "Gish Gallop" works. Flood the debate with spurious assertions in such a stream that it is impossible to addess even a fraction of them logically and factually.
In other words, if they can't dazzle you with brilliance, they will baffle you with bullshit, eh?
Kent Hovind is a master at the Gish Gallop. And he has refused every offer to debate in writing. He does not want to debate on a level playing field.
I kept my mouth shut when I met Duan Gish. Tommy Huxley explains it best…
Your Visit with Gish
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2006 : 22:16:31 [Permalink]
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Kil said:
quote:
Kent Hovind is a master at the Gish Gallop. And he has refused every offer to debate in writing. He does not want to debate on a level playing field.
I kept my mouth shut when I met Duan Gish. Tommy Huxley explains it best…
Your Visit with Gish
Thanks for that link, Kil! That substantially illustrates how "Sam" cleaned my clock, though he did it from a paranoid New Age perspective, rather than from Gish's YEC one. But essentilly, all lies and delusions boil down to being the same, however their political or religious stripe patterns may vary in detail. "God did it," "aliens did it," and "magic did it" are really all a single "explanation." Why can't these people cooperate and be stupid, so we can always beat them in verbal fisticuffs? |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Jason Barker
Skeptic Friend
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2006 : 12:45:49 [Permalink]
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| "Sam" sounds like someone who gets his info from David Icke books. ICke weaves together EVERYTHING, no matter how mundane, in to a grand conspiracy narrative, where nothing is mundane or unrelated. Sam may have not constructed his worldview himmself and may just bhe repeating stuff from an Icke or Commander X type author. |
Homer: He thinks he's so big, with all his money and wealth. But there's one thing he can't buy with his money.
Marge:What's that?
Homer:........a dinosaur. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2006 : 12:53:58 [Permalink]
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Jason wrote:quote:
"Sam" sounds like someone who gets his info from David Icke books. ICke weaves together EVERYTHING, no matter how mundane, in to a grand conspiracy narrative, where nothing is mundane or unrelated. Sam may have not constructed his worldview himmself and may just bhe repeating stuff from an Icke or Commander X type author.
Could be, Jason. I haven't read Icke or Commander X myself, so I wouldn't have recognized the borrowings. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Jason Barker
Skeptic Friend
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2006 : 13:39:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
I haven't read Icke or Commander X myself, so I wouldn't have recognized the borrowings.
I've only read a bit, here and there. Icke is famous for his claims that a race of extradimensional shapeshifting reptiles control the world. He calls it the "babylonian brotherhood" (a term that, I understand, is taken from Rastafarian conspiracies.) The reptiles occupy all sections fo power and regularly molest children and make porn films (claims taken from Brice Taylor and some other woman who made similar claims, and says she saw Bush Sr. morph in to a humanoid reptile before her eyes). He also borrows HEAVILY from conspiracies of the Holy Blood Holy Grail variety. By far his most bizzare claim, however, is about skeptics.* (Note: I don't know if he claimed this. See below.) He says that James Randi is a pedohpile, all skeptics are chld molesters,and the entire purpose of skepticism is to discredit psychics who could read the minds of us evil skeptics and reveal that all ckeptics are child molesters. These are typical things to be found in Icke books. He also cites the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a reliable, authentic document, even though he insists he's not anti-semitic.
Commander X is similar, with more alien and military focus as his villains. X claims there are hidden controllers, the soulless ones, aliens, the illuminati, whatever, controlling people from alien bases beneath the Earth. They acheive mind control through microwave weapons and day time tv which, he claims, in all seriousness, somehow puts people in a trance state to be impregnated with human alien hybrids, which, at the time of the claim (1994 or so) were largely the norm of society. Commander X claims to be "a retired military operative". (More on this below.) He also goes on about the secret origins of humanity, the serpent race, alien technology of the new world order, etc.
One David Icke's claims: It's hard to know what he himself claims and what he just repeats. His books are written so badly that it's hard to seperate the material he merely copies from his own "conclusions". It seems to me that his books are more like a compendium of things others have said and consist of nothing original.
As for Commander X. "He" is neither a reitred military operative nor a person. After Jim Keith, UFOlogist, paranormal crank, etc. (author of a few bizzare works, two about balck helicopters, but his most famous being "Casebook on the Men In Black") died in 1999, it was revealed that Commander X was a pen name that Keith and a number of other such people wrote under, to disseminate claims even they were afraid of having to their name. So, not only is X's non credentials as a retired military operative (as half the rresearchers of this nonsense seem to be) totally invalid, it's also near impossible to verify ANYTHING Commander X ever writes since no one knows just who is making what claim in which book. Others have criticized X books for the same thing Icke books have in spades; they are largely just stringing together a lot of seemingly unrrelated claims in to a grand conspiratorial narrative.
Perhaps I know too much about this nonsense, but I love stealing these peoples ideas for my own fictional and artistic works. ^_^
Well, anyway, it's possible this "Sam" person has read a few Icke books, or Commander X, or similar authors online or in other books (such as "Nothing in this book is true but it's exactly how things are", which is a new agey take on conspiracies and tries to link them together with questionable geometrical "synchronicity".) Regardless, I've found that this kind of hodgepodge, ala carte conspiratorial worldview is pretty common among these types. |
Homer: He thinks he's so big, with all his money and wealth. But there's one thing he can't buy with his money.
Marge:What's that?
Homer:........a dinosaur. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2006 : 14:15:10 [Permalink]
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Jason, thank you very much for making a real effort to bring me up to date about the writings of these dangerously paranoid weirdos.
Overall, in the big picture, yes, that is the kind of unjustified linking of weirdnesses that "Sam" employed.
However, the details, in my fading memory, seem to differ substantially. In my mind, Sam's hogwash was somewhat more "sane" than the bullshit you've familiarized me with, though I only mean that in relative terms.
Also, I believe Sam would not have accepted or repeated anything so outrageously vile and obviously fabricated as the so-called "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." Nor did he ever make or repeat nasty unfounded accusations like the one you mention being told about Randi, or the "secret" motivation behind skepticism in general. I know for a certainty that I would have walked out on Sam (or even maybe even physically attacked him) if he had said such offensive things.
Sam seems to me to have collected the elements of his "theory" from many sources, and I do recall that he was meticulous in citing his sources (although I can't recall a single one of them). I think the mental structure he has built out of other people's ideas is pretty much his own unique construction.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/20/2006 14:18:24 |
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Jason Barker
Skeptic Friend
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2006 : 17:15:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Jason, thank you very much for making a real effort to bring me up to date about the writings of these dangerously paranoid weirdos.
I'm actually pretty behind. I first found out about Commander X in 1994-95 or so. I don't think he's/they hav had anything come out under that name since. Icke, however, is still active, and seems to put out a new 400-500 page paperweight/joke book every two or so years. You can visit his website if you want a headache.
quote:
However, the details, in my fading memory, seem to differ substantially. In my mind, Sam's hogwash was somewhat more "sane" than the bullshit you've familiarized me with, though I only mean that in relative terms.
In terms of sheer bizzare nonsense, ICke is probably the most out there conspiracy nut I've ever encountered. Commander X is out there too, but something about his stuff has a weird, goofy pulp sci fi quality that makes it readable as fiction just for enjoyment. Icke, however, I dunno, something about that guy just irritates the h-ll out of me.
quote:
Also, I believe Sam would not have accepted or repeated anything so outrageously vile and obviously fabricated as the so-called "Protocols of the Elders of Zion."
I've found that the aceptance of hate ideology varies a lot in conspiracy circles. Most of the UFO/MUFON types seem to ginore it, and its outright condemned by John Vankin and John Whalen, author fo the 80 greatest conspiracies of all time. (Though thats more a trivia book, in my opinion, than a serious conspiracy book, if you know what I mean.)
However, JEff REnse, of Rense.com, famous in the conspiracy world, has a preoccupation with "zionism". While looking at his site today, I saw an image with a caption about something or other being a zionist plot. The image itself was am octopus wiht a star of david on it stretching tis tentacles over the world.
I don't dismiss all conspiray theorists as hatemongers until they give me a reason too. Like Jim Keith, who, in his paranoid miliktia rantings in his first black helicopters book, said that "one of heathers two mommies might become attoryne general." >_< (Amusingly, in another book, he condemens the idea of homosexuality being bad. The black helicopters book with the two mommies quote was from a well known and now defunct conspiracy punblisher, while the book where he attacks homophobia in an intro came from a publisher of ironic pop culture kitsch that has a large "hipster" readership, so I wonder if he's just pandering to audiences.)
quote:
Nor did he ever make or repeat nasty unfounded accusations like the one you mention being told about Randi, or the "secret" motivation behind skepticism in general. I know for a certainty that I would have walked out on Sam (or even maybe even physically attacked him) if he had said such offensive things.
I once saw a site that alleged to have proof of Randi being a child molester because he allegedly tried to solicit sex from 17 or 18 year olds. All the evidence the site had were a few audio files that didn't work, if I recall. Maybe the conspiracy just got rid of them or something.
quote:
Sam seems to me to have collected the elements of his "theory" from many sources, and I do recall that he was meticulous in citing his sources (although I can't recall a single one of them). I think the mental structure he has built out of other people's ideas is pretty much his own unique construction.
As I said, it's not uncommon. Lots of conspiracy theorists have their own epic narrative, and no two are ever identical.
I'm out of practice with this stuff. I don't know whats big in the conspiracy world right now. I know Rense still gets lots of readers, and I find that worrying. His site often publishes stuff I consider hate material. Some of it has nazi and theocratic elements to it, and his site often defends holocaust denier Ernst Zundel.
That he, and ICke, the other big prominent conspiracy celebrity I know of, are popular in these circles right now is troubling. |
Homer: He thinks he's so big, with all his money and wealth. But there's one thing he can't buy with his money.
Marge:What's that?
Homer:........a dinosaur. |
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