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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/04/2006 : 08:42:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Probably true. However there is a little catch. The evolutionists world, unlike anybody else's, could have started in a "warm little pond." Or so they say...
Sorry Bill, but nobody is making any claims except the creationists with their 'Garden of Eden" and "6,000 years old" blither.
The fact is that nobody knows how life began on earth; I don't, Richard Dawkins doesn't, Ken Ham doesn't in spite of his preposterous claims, and you don't.
But it's being worked on.... 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 13:47:03 [Permalink]
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| Sorry about posting the image instead of a link, Dave, but I was afraid the web site would soon be deleting it. I wonder if someone could capture the page of cartoons and store it somewhere in case it is deleted from the web page. Or maybe most of you think there will always be one site left that has them. I also wonder if Google will delete any links to any copies of the page on their search engine. I'm wondering when that kind of censorship will be coming down the line? |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 13:49:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Beskeptigal, can you please edit your post to inlcude some text above the picture? As it is now, it appears on the SFN home page where it messes with the layout. (It's a bug we haven't gotten to fix yet)
Edit: Ignore this message, Dave_W fixed the image.
I thought Dave edited it for copyright reasons. I am totally confused by these technical particulars. My screen looked just fine. Anyway, next time I want to put an image up I'll PM filthy for advice. Sorry. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/04/2006 14:11:17 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 14:00:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I, frankly, am shocked that anyone would find it shocking that cartoons intended to piss off devout Muslims have actually pissed off devout Muslims.
Really, what's happened is nothing more than what one should expect when one tries to inflame any substantial minority of the population. I'm sure we could incite riots here in the 'States by portraying Jesus as sharing Fred Phelps' rabid hatred, or by portraying Martin Luther King as a gangsta thug out on a drive-by, or any of a number of other moronic stereotypes.
This isn't about religion nearly as much as it's about figuratively spitting on someone else's ideals. It's just a matter of finding an ideal that people care about deeply - like they do religion. Given enough time and resources, I'm sure we could come up with something which would have a similar effect on model train enthusiasts. Hell, I've heard that it's pretty damn simple to get British football fans to turn to violence, and I bet if you were to don a Seahawks jersey this weekend and strut around Pittsburg shouting "Steelers suck" it wouldn't take long before you wound up face down in the dirt (at least).
It's not religion that's at fault here, it's our ability to take personally an impersonal statement which has caused this outrage over some cartoons. From my point of view, the non-religious still have things they care about deeply enough for this sort of crap to happen. So even after religions are eliminated from the planet, we'll still see things like this, except they'll be about racial or sexual or sports or music or daytime-TV stereotypes (etc).
That's an interesting view, Dave. The US certainly reacted to Lenon's comments about the Beatles being more popular than Jesus. Albeit, they didn't exactly burn down the British embassy or boycott British products other than the Beatles music.
But I don't buy it that this is some group's ideal being trounced on. It is 'organized' religion that has led to this reaction, not a million people's personal feeling being hurt. As Mab's posts point out, it isn't new that Mohammad has been painted, nor are political cartoons never as rude as these. In fact, these were valid cartoons. Islam is most certainly being distorted for political reasons. That should be what was noted by the offended, not the fact the point was made using Mohammad.
How else do you make the point? Use mullahs or the Koran? I suppose the mullahs would have been the least offensive.
quote:
Dave:
That religions tend to encourage a mob mentality is, of course, a bad thing, but eliminating religion isn't going to solve the more-basic problem of the mob mentality itself.
No, I was thinking more along the lines of changing all of human nature. 
On the one hand, I see your point. On the other, I see the 'organized' part leading to the next world war. There are plenty of mob mentality issues that are dangerous and need addressing in their own right. There is nationalism and ethnic groupings that have led to many a war. But that doesn't mean religion is just some group identity issue and therefore the group identity is the problem, not the religion.
This particular religious movement, Islam today, is taking on a frightening look. And while not all religions are the same as this, I do think the idea that GOD is the underlying premise in the righteousness of the reaction here is providing the momentum that makes the reaction much more extreme than just one's national or ethnic pride. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/04/2006 14:19:42 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 14:15:57 [Permalink]
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First the important stuff: Filthy, thank you so much for switching your signature image from L. Ron Hubbard to Lucrezia Borgia. That smarmy Hubbard's ugly mug was creeping me out. Sweet young Lucrezia looks downright respectable by comparison.
Bill, making up silly-sounding or indefensible positions and attributing them to one's opponent is the oldest tactic in the book. You came to the wrong place to try stuff like that. Skepticism and science are both based upon using logical methods to gather evidence, not about worshipping any particular body of theories. Every theory, including basic ones like evolution or special relativity, are open to question by those presenting contrary evidence, though that evidence must be strong.
So present evidence for your beliefs. But remember that neither volume of voice, or quantity of words is evidence of anything but zeal, and misquoting your opponents is only evidence of contempt for truth.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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trogdor
Skeptic Friend
198 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 14:47:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
First the important stuff: Filthy, thank you so much for switching your signature image from L. Ron Hubbard to Lucrezia Borgia. That smarmy Hubbard's ugly mug was creeping me out. Sweet young Lucrezia looks downright respectable by comparison.
Ditto. although I would prefer pictures of snakes and possums.
quote:
So present evidence for your beliefs. But remember that neither volume of voice, or quantity of words is evidence of anything but zeal, and misquoting your opponents is only evidence of contempt for truth.
man. That should be chiseled onto stone somewhere... definitely words to live by. |
all eyes were on Ford Prefect. some of them were on stalks.
-Douglas Adams |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 18:02:46 [Permalink]
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Humber wrote:
"Bin Laden our beloved, Denmark must be blown up," the protesters chanted.
...
I thought Islam was a religion of peace? That's what they keep trying to sell us, anyway.
They don't have a sense of irony.
But on a more serious note, Islam is the second largest religion in the world, and yet you wrote “they” as if they are a single, unified group. The people trying to sell it as a religion of peace are usually not the same people who are blowing shit up.
I've gotta feel sympathy for all the non-violent and level-headed Muslims out there who are undoubtedly shaking their heads in embarrassment at the sickening irony of this recent insanity. (Like that editor in Jordon who got fired.)
Dave W. wrote: It's not religion that's at fault here, it's our ability to take personally an impersonal statement which has caused this outrage over some cartoons. From my point of view, the non-religious still have things they care about deeply enough for this sort of crap to happen. So even after religions are eliminated from the planet, we'll still see things like this, except they'll be about racial or sexual or sports or music or daytime-TV stereotypes (etc).
Amen. Some here have argued that Dave is wrong because the intensity of the violent reaction to the cartoons is much greater than some other offenses in modern times. But let us not forget that ethnic hatred and nationalism enabled the Nazis to commit their atrocities. Or how about slavery? Did the God premise cause that? I think the struggle for power over land and resources is the basic root of all conflict between groups of humans. Religion is often just the excuse built around that, and then people blindly follow the religion, forgetting the root. But once the root is gone, even if the religious motivations linger a while, they will peter out. In other words, the way toward peace is not the elimination of religion, but rather, our ability to maintain that all have access to the basic necessities of life.
Humbert wrote: The future of our civilization depends upon whether our most cherished rights, such as freedom of speech, can ever be compatible with Islam.
Historically, Islam displays a great deal of diversity (as also pointed out by Halfmooner. It was not the nature of Islam that caused it to tend toward extremism in modern times. That is more related to broader ethnic and cultural differences, as well as their experiences with Colonialism, both Russia and America's reckless arming and funding of certain Arab groups during the cold war, and the strategic establishment of Israel – a Western-backed nation that has nukes – right smack in the middle of the Arab world when it was feeling hostile toward the West. No doubt there must be some other conditions that would foster a change in mainstream Islam that would result in peaceful coexistence with non-Muslim Westerners. And I'm betting they don't involve continuously invading, occupying, and trying to control the leadership of Arab nations.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 02/04/2006 18:03:46 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 20:57:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I thought Dave edited it for copyright reasons. I am totally confused by these technical particulars. My screen looked just fine. Anyway, next time I want to put an image up I'll PM filthy for advice. Sorry.
Do not worry about this that much. I didn't edit for copyright reasons, although technically speaking I probably should have. We (the staff) have just noticed recently that images posted near the top of the first post in a thread make a mess of the home page of the SFN web site. If you haven't looked, you'll notice that the first posts of the most-recently-posted-to threads are on the right-hand side of the homepage, so images near the beginning of such posts wind up on the homepage, too. If they're large, then all the text to the left of the image
winds
up in
little
tiny
columns.
Changing the image to a link fixes that, as would posting a paragraph or two before an image in a first post.
By the way, posting an image here as you did won't protect it if it is removed from the original site. All the software here does is link to that original image. It doesn't copy it to our servers first. If I'd left the image as it was, and it was deleted off the original site, we'd just be treated to a little box with an X in it when looking at your OP.
But sheesh, don't sweat these small things. Apologies were unnecessary. Save them for when you hack our database and sell our membership rolls to spammers. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 22:39:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
But sheesh, don't sweat these small things. Apologies were unnecessary. Save them for when you hack our database and sell our membership rolls to spammers.
Uh-oh. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 00:29:34 [Permalink]
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Mere satiric cartoons are just an excuse for these organized riots and protests. A match to the fuel of hatred of the West, (North America and Europe,) that has been poured from many Middle Eastern Madrasas over the years, long before the earlier and latest Iraq wars and 9/11.
Ironically, any excuse to stir up hatred of liberal Western influences among large groups of Muslims is likely privately welcomed by the radical Islamists as much as the continuous ‘War on Terror' is privately welcomed by the radical Neoconservatives in Washington. It's an excuse to pursue larger malevolent aims in which both sides, though opposed, look forward to each mutual transgression to justify their own plans.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 02:59:21 [Permalink]
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Yeh, L. Ron has forever been tiresome. I left him up long enough for anyone interested to read of him; he was, after all, a pretty amazing man who led a remarkable if fuckup-filled life. I'll do the same for Ms. Borgia , who, I think, was far more of a not-too-bright and docile tool of her father (who will grace my signature in due course) rather than some evil and scheming femme fatale.
I find this squalling and fist-shaking over some cartoons quite disturbing due to the blind and idiotic hatred behind it. I don't think that the drawings themselves set it off so much as simply were used as an excuse to squall and fist-shake at those not in accordance with their, particular myth system. If it hadn't been that, something else would have come along. As earlier noted, most Muslims would rather go about their business undisturbed, but given the right rhetoric, would follow along with, or at least support the squallers & fist-shakers. Flip the coin and Christians, et al., will do exactly the same, asinine thing.
It seems absurd to get your britches in a bight over something as trivial this, but then, so is religion in general, and there you have it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 02/05/2006 03:17:39 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 05:37:28 [Permalink]
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Being of an inquisitive nature, I decided to view the offending 'toons for myself, so, to that end, I went searching. Rather to my suprise, they aren't all that easy to find. Evidently, few news organizations are willing to publish them on their sites, demonstrating yet again the abject pussyism currently rampant in the national media.
Never the less, I found and linked them, and here is the one that the mullahs seems to find the most off-the-wall and objectionable:
Not bad, but still nowhere near exquisite quality and simplicity of the aforementioned Piss Christ.
A few years ago, I found a Christ wuz a Hippy 'toon. It showed, in vivid color, A totally wasted Jesus doing a spliff through a hole in his hand. Kind'a wish I'd saved that one.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 02/05/2006 05:50:49 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 06:19:24 [Permalink]
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I'm wondering about the underlying forces on these riots. If we know one thing, it's that it is not very hard to incite a mob of people who already have a grudge against something. Due to a lot of political propaganda, in the muslim world that seems to be the west.
But I'm wondering how much of the riots is organized, or whether they are spontaneous. At first, the upflare seemed organized to me. I was under the strong opinion that these had to be incited by a few religious zealots. But I'm wondering. It could be a chain reaction. What do you guys think? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 07:59:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
I'm wondering about the underlying forces on these riots. If we know one thing, it's that it is not very hard to incite a mob of people who already have a grudge against something. Due to a lot of political propaganda, in the muslim world that seems to be the west.
But I'm wondering how much of the riots is organized, or whether they are spontaneous. At first, the upflare seemed organized to me. I was under the strong opinion that these had to be incited by a few religious zealots. But I'm wondering. It could be a chain reaction. What do you guys think?
If I remember right, these 'toons started back around last Sept. That's lots of time to get organized.
My guess is that the mullahs in one place started it and from there, it was a few phone calls and "monkey see; monkey do." As the rest chimed in, their followers, well, followed blindly as they are wont to do.
Why is our species so dedicated to creating so much sound and fury over that which means nothing?
That's an retorical question; answer not required -- hell, there might not eveb be an answer.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 09:04:15 [Permalink]
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I think that Juan Cole, a Professor of History at the University of Michigan, has a good perspective on the Muslim reaction to the cartoons in his blog.
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- TW
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