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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 02/16/2006 : 01:47:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
As for Cheney, there is a liver enzyme that can tell if you drink daily and in excess. It's an ALT. It takes months to return to normal if you drink excessively. I've never seen a court or police agency take advantage of that marker in a criminal investigation.
The reason it isn't widely used is that the huge majority of alcohol related cases are about how drunk a person was at a specific time.
Yes but repeat DUIs mean the person will keep re-offending if alcoholism is involved and not addressed. So an ALT would be useful for repeat offenders.
As for Whittington, if the hospital isn't making stuff up and he is sitting up and getting around, he probably isn't having withdrawals so we can rule that out.
Fox news of course has been repeating the talking point that "the police ruled out alcohol". As if they had been able to actually check.  We'll never know, I'm afraid.
I hate to get all conspiratorial but I can't help thinking the admin is happy to have the controversy be over a 24 hour delay and who notified the public of all this. I don't care that there was a delay and I wonder if the public mostly doesn't care either. So the news media look like they're making a big deal where there isn't one. All the while the real big deals are 2nd page news.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2006 : 01:53:30 [Permalink]
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| I've read Molly Ivan's, Bushwacked. There's quite a bit of insight into Texas politics and the corruption of the Bush team long before they got to DC. Bush totally trashed the education system there. Her comments were helpful in placing Whittington's politics into the record. Otherwise I'd have figured him to be one of the disdainful rich that Cheney and Bush are. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/16/2006 12:41:37 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2006 : 01:58:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
As for Whittington, if the hospital isn't making stuff up and he is sitting up and getting around, he probably isn't having withdrawals so we can rule that out.
Alcoholism, maybe. But today a reporter asked Whittington's doctor if any tests were done on Whittington's blood alcohol level at the time of his admission and the doctor promptly ended the press conference.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2006 : 02:01:02 [Permalink]
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I haven't read that book, B., but had heard of it and Molly Ivins. It was truely nice of her to put old Harry into proper perpective. I do recall reading that Whittington, as head of Texas prisons, was vocally uncomfortable with Texas' practice of executing the retarded.
Thanks for the further insights on Bush & Co. in their Texas days. All hat and no horse, that's Bush and Cheney.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/16/2006 02:01:44 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2006 : 03:57:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Was Cheney under the influence of alcohol at the time of the accident? Cheney's denied this, though he admitted to having "a beer" hours before he shot Whittington. The other guests and staff who were present need to be interviewed properly. Photographs are probably available, too.
Cheny is the VP and this happened in TX -- 'nuff said. I don't think they were drunk, but they'd had enough to "loosen up" their judgment. Therefore, if you look at it from the right perspective, a good, staunch, Republican perspective, it's all that rotton, little quail's fault! Somebody ought'a investigate that bird -- betcha it's got terrorist ties -- and send the treasonous fucker off to the Gitmo Gulag.
quote:
Why did Kenedy County Sheriff Salinas agree to delay his interview of Cheney until the next morning? Is this the way he would investigate any other shooting?
Cheney is the VP and this is TX -- 'nuff said. Everybody needed a little time to get their stories straight. This is the Repuclican version of Chappaquidic, less the water.
quote:
Why did the Secret Service keep Sheriff's deputies away from Cheney the first evening? By doing so, was the US Secret Service helping to cover up a felony?
Cheney is the VP and this TX -- 'nuff said. And yes. And they, intending to keep their jobs, follow orders and keep their stupid mouths shut.
quote:
Why, after the delayed interview, did Sheriff Salinas blankly state that no alcohol was involved? Did he just take Cheney's and Armstrong's word? Is it typical investigative behavior to be so gullible? A man was shot in his jurisdiction, yet Salinas only filed a half-page report. Are his reports always so terse?
Cheney is the VP and this is TX -- 'nuff said. Salinas is probably pretty good at his line of work, but is way out of his league with this one. He faced a choice: give Cheney the same treatment he'd hand out to any other, poor shmuck and piss off the entire White House as a result, or try and get through it as quickly and quietly as possible and hope that it'll all go away. Smart man, that Sheriff Salinas, but I don't think the plan's working.
quote:
When will the FBI or some other qualified investigative agency arrive on the scene, gather a list of all those who were present, and start to do interviews?
When they are told to by the administration, whereupon they will discover that this is, after all, TX.
'Nuff said
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2006 : 04:20:10 [Permalink]
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Good points, filthy. Still, we gotta ask, ask, ask those questions. Gotta hammer at these guys' armor until we get through the chinks. If this relatively minor incident is a way to get at 'em, that's fine by me.
Very strong ballistics discussion at the InfoWars site, below. The guy there, Alex Jones, thinks the range was closer to 10 feet than the 90 feet (30 yards) given in Cheney's and Armstrong's cover stories, and Jones carefully explains his reasoning, complete with diagrams and ballistic gel photos:
http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/cheney_shooting_coverup_in_progress_ballistics.htm
Jones also says:
quote:
Secret Service spokesman Eric Zahren stated that about an hour after the shooting the local Secret Service office notified the Sheriffs' Department of the shooting and arrangements were made for an interview. Saturday night at least one deputy showed up at the ranch's front gate and asked to speak to Cheney but was turned away by the Secret Service, Zahren said. This sort of delaying tactic is indicative of drunk-driving hit and runs by rich kids allowing the necessary time to sober up, contact your attorney and get your story straight.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2006 : 05:05:18 [Permalink]
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What are you doing up at 4 am HM?  |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2006 : 05:09:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Good points, filthy. Still, we gotta ask, ask, ask those questions. Gotta hammer at these guys' armor until we get through the chinks. If this relatively minor incident is a way to get at 'em, that's fine by me.
Very strong ballistics discussion at the InfoWars site, below. The guy there, Alex Jones, thinks the range was closer to 10 feet than the 90 feet (30 yards) given in Cheney's and Armstrong's cover stories, and Jones carefully explains his reasoning, complete with diagrams and ballistic gel photos:
http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/cheney_shooting_coverup_in_progress_ballistics.htm
Jones also says:
[quote]Secret Service spokesman Eric Zahren stated that about an hour after the shooting the local Secret Service office notified the Sheriffs' Department of the shooting and arrangements were made for an interview. Saturday night at least one deputy showed up at the ranch's front gate and asked to speak to Cheney but was turned away by the Secret Service, Zahren said. This sort of delaying tactic is indicative of drunk-driving hit and runs by rich kids allowing the necessary time to sober up, contact your attorney and get your story straight.
Yes, yes. But I don't buy the 10 feet, either, not yet. At a range of slightly over 3 yards, that gun would have likely made a hole in Whittington big enough for my house 'possum to throw a party in. Especally if it had a tight choke.
30 yards is utterly ridiculous. Consider: 7.5 shot, while not the smallest, is still a minute bit of lead. Beyond 20 yards or so, it has little power, nor, considering the game hunted, does it need any more. The pellet in question would have had to go through a hunter's vest, the coat beneath it, a shirt, and, one assumes, an undershirt, a lawyer's notoriously thick skin, and still penetrate as far as the heart. It just ain't on.
I and others have guesstimated aprox 10 yards, maybe a shade less, and I'll stick by that until better info, a verifiable statement from someone with a tape measure and no agenda perhaps, comes along.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2006 : 05:16:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
... and still penetrate as far as the heart. It just ain't on.
The heart of a republican lawyer....
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2006 : 06:17:06 [Permalink]
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beskeptigal said:
quote:
Yes but repeat DUIs mean the person will keep re-offending if alcoholism is involved and not addressed. So an ALT would be useful for repeat offenders.
Usefull how? Last time I checked it wasn't a crime to drink alcohol.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2006 : 11:55:02 [Permalink]
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Beskeptigal queried: quote:
What are you doing up at 4 am HM?
That was rather late even for me, but it comes from having no life.
Dude objected:quote:
Usefull how? Last time I checked it wasn't a crime to drink alcohol.
Nor should it be, nor should it be a crime to be an alcoholic per se. I shouldn't speak for B., but I suppose she's talking about how courts might try to control confirmed alcoholics who have habitually broken laws while drunk. You could use the liver test to confirm that they stayed sober over time, as a condition of parole, for instance. There are many alcoholics who are perfectly fine people when not on the sauce, but dangers to society when drinking. But B. can better explain her comment herself.
filthy mentioned: quote:
I and others have guesstimated aprox 10 yards, maybe a shade less, and I'll stick by that until better info, a verifiable statement from someone with a tape measure and no agenda perhaps, comes along.
Right! The precise point is that there should have been people out there "with a tape measure and no agenda."
Me, I've got an agenda, a bone to pick, a grudge, an itch to scratch, and a chip on my shoulder. Further, I've got no experience with 28 gauge scatterguns, I've got no personal knowledge of using #7-1/2 shot, I can only get around by infrequent bus, and I'm not in Texas. I do have a tape measure, but not one long enough for this. I would love to see one of you gun fellows borrow a friend's 28 gauge piece, load in some #7-1/2 factory rounds, and see just what it does to something like a watermelon, a Republican, or a lawyer at various ranges.
Or maybe Jamie Hyneman, Adam Savage, and the "Mythbusters" crew could test this 30-yard myth? We need some real-world experiments. It should be possible to narrow down our guesstimates considerably.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/16/2006 12:44:28 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2006 : 12:45:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
As for Whittington, if the hospital isn't making stuff up and he is sitting up and getting around, he probably isn't having withdrawals so we can rule that out.
Alcoholism, maybe. But today a reporter asked Whittington's doctor if any tests were done on Whittington's blood alcohol level at the time of his admission and the doctor promptly ended the press conference.
Well it is against our state law to give out drug, alcohol, mental illness and STD information on a patient specifically. Texas may have a similar law. I think there is enough evidence now that Wit.'s not in withdrawals, but I'd bet many of those in the party had their share of alcohol. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/16/2006 12:53:35 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2006 : 12:51:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
beskeptigal said:
quote:
Yes but repeat DUIs mean the person will keep re-offending if alcoholism is involved and not addressed. So an ALT would be useful for repeat offenders.
Usefull how? Last time I checked it wasn't a crime to drink alcohol.
Alcoholism is one cause of drunk driving. If an alcoholic has a suspended license, they are likely to still drive. Once you know you have an alcoholic getting DUIs, you need to take more measures than ones which don't stop the behavior. Especially since we know that alcoholic driver is very likely to kill.
There are other medical conditions that affect driving rights. If an epileptic cannot maintain seizure control, they can't get a license. So why is it OK to be physically addicted to alcohol and not have effective measures taken to stop you from driving? |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/16/2006 12:55:40 |
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