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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 02/17/2006 : 12:38:03 [Permalink]
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BigPapaSmurf worried: quote:
You leave the mythbusters alone, without them (and South Park) its back to the dark ages for skeptics, as far as public awareness is concerned.
No problem with the Mythbusters themselves. The problem is with a handful of very nasty people in the Mythbusters forum, who, surprisingly, are wildly opposed to the idea of empirical testing of the myth that a 28-gauge shotgun using #7-1/2 shot can put pellets into a man's heart at 30 yards range. The Mythbusters are great, but they have some know-nothings in their forums.
B, thanks for taking a look there!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2006 : 12:55:38 [Permalink]
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Odd, my thread on the Mythbusters site seems to have been deleted, though I've gotten no notice from the forum administrators.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2006 : 13:36:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Odd, my thread on the Mythbusters site seems to have been deleted, though I've gotten no notice from the forum administrators.
Consider yourself in Coventry, you wretched fellow! Tarring, feathering, and banning with extreme unction (what the hell does that mean, anyway?) will soon follow. quote:
You leave the mythbusters alone, without them (and South Park) its back to the dark ages for skeptics, as far as public awareness is concerned.
Oh and they never professed to be Skeptics, which is why they wont be commiting TV suicide with an anti-creation or anti-Dick Cheney show.
As far as the general public's awareness is concerned, those that actually are aware, mostly, skeptics occupy the very bottom rung on the intellectual ladder. Miss Cleo got better ratings than we do, even after her conviction (I liked Miss Cleo. She brought a bit folksy class and personality to the tired, old flim-flam).
Me, I'd rather go down swingin', clawin', kickin' and bitin', than to wuss out.
Maybe I'll drop back by Mythbusters and see if I've mythed something.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 02/17/2006 13:39:36 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2006 : 13:51:59 [Permalink]
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I've sent the following email to mod_ivy@yahoo.com, the forum Mod:
quote:
Greetings:
The thread I initiated, "Shotgun damage at 30-yard range," was deleted, either late last night, or early today. As the forum's Moderator, do you know what happened to it? I received no notice, no complaint from you or other forum administrators. I'm mystified. Was the deletion censorship done in response to political pressure?
If I repost the topic, will it just be quietly removed again? Is such apparent censorship in accord with the fine spirit of open scientific testing and fearless skeptical inquiry that makes the Mythbusters show so great?
-- HalfMooner
BigPapa said:quote:
Oh and they never professed to be Skeptics, which is why they wont be commiting TV suicide with an anti-creation or anti-Dick Cheney show.
Okay, so maybe I got the "skeptical inquiry" part wrong.
Amazing how many minions the Forces of Darkness have running around arranging ad hominen attacks and censorship. Things have become deceptively comfortable here among friends, so this was a bit of a shock to innocent me.
Are skeptics being battered and censored like this generally? I can see how this kind of mobbing behavior and self-censorship could be powerful weapons in the hands of the benighted ones. All they gotta do is destroy; always easier than creating something.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2006 : 15:14:32 [Permalink]
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I got this "response" from mod_ivy:
quote:
Hi,
The boards are for discussion of the show. We
discourage politics, sex, religion and most other
controversial topics that aren't show related.
The Visitor Agreement is our guide.
Thanks for not posting off topic.
mod_ivy
I have replied:
quote:
Dear mod_ivy:
Thank you for the (form-letter style) response.
So, you did delete my post? And on "political" grounds?
There was nothing inherently "political" about my request for a simple ballistics experiment. Is a request for a Mythbusters test of the 30-yard effects of a 28-gauge shotgun so much more "political" than the Mythbusters' famous test of the Kennedy assassination "Ice Bullet" myth? Was this request so outrageous that the request must be totally deleted, rather than simply be ignored?
It's your forum, so I will abide by your decisions, but I question whether this deletion was done in a "Mythbusters" spirit of open inquiry.
-- HalfMooner
I'm getting a much less positive view of Mythbusters, now.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/17/2006 15:19:13 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2006 : 16:23:16 [Permalink]
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Lemmee see if the impression I'm getting is correct: is this a site dedicated to some tv show?
Which'll give you some idea of how much toob I pay attention to... Never heard of a show called "Mythbusters."
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2006 : 16:40:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Lemmee see if the impression I'm getting is correct: is this a site dedicated to some tv show?
Which'll give you some idea of how much toob I pay attention to... Never heard of a show called "Mythbusters."
Yep. It's a show dedicated to desmistify myths. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2006 : 16:51:30 [Permalink]
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filthy fathomed: quote:
Lemmee see if the impression I'm getting is correct: is this a site dedicated to some tv show?
Which'll give you some idea of how much toob I pay attention to... Never heard of a show called "Mythbusters."
Your guess is quite correct, filthy. Two fearless professional movie special effects coordinators, Jamie Hyneman and Adam Savage, run this TV show on the Discovery Channel.
"Mythbusters" takes urban, historical, movie-related, and other "myths" that are suggested by the public, and gives them real-world empirical testing. They do all this with great flair, and often huge explosions. Sometimes, they "bust" the myth, sometimes they confirm it, sometimes they just can't make a firm conclusion either way. Though their experiments are rough-and-tumble, they are generally "scientific," in an informal fashion. Sometimes they bring in scientists or statiticians to help them design experiments. It's always fun to watch.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2006 : 17:34:22 [Permalink]
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Sounds like fun, but I only have network. No wonder I've never heard of it.
Further, I can understand why they don't want to get into a political controversy, although if I were in charge, hehehe, we'd be no the range with a cheap 28 guage equiped with a Polychoke, learning all about the effects of factory quail loads at various ranges and chokes.
7.5 shot from a 12 bore, factory, or better yet, hand-loaded shells, and choked tight, would be effective at some 30 yards; but I still don't see it as the story tells it. That's a lot of penetration for such small shot, from such a small chamber.
In any event, our lawyer sieve is out of the hospital and looked pretty chipper when he made his statement to the press. I wonder if we'll ever get the real story.
Hey 'mooner, I was just offered a Mossberg 1/2 thou! I was talking to a dealer friend about yours, and he came up with one. I am so tempted -- I don't currently have a shotgun. But if I buy it, I'll have to eat dried beans and road-kill for a month afterward....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2006 : 18:30:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
7.5 shot from a 12 bore, factory, or better yet, hand-loaded shells, and choked tight, would be effective at some 30 yards; but I still don't see it as the story tells it. That's a lot of penetration for such small shot, from such a small chamber.
In any event, our lawyer sieve is out of the hospital and looked pretty chipper when he made his statement to the press. I wonder if we'll ever get the real story.
Filthy, I'm delighted the old guy's out of the hospital, standing, talking, and looking good. The jokes are only going to continue so long a the accident wasn't fatal, of course, but I wish Harry well regardless.
quote:
Hey 'mooner, I was just offered a Mossberg 1/2 thou! I was talking to a dealer friend about yours, and he came up with one. I am so tempted -- I don't currently have a shotgun. But if I buy it, I'll have to eat dried beans and road-kill for a month afterward....
Super, filthy! Mine was bought used, BTW, seem to recall it cost about $200, when I bought it in Aberdeen, WA three years back. Funny how the most functional pump shotguns are a lot cheaper than the fancy-engraved, hand-made, but essentially mid-19th-Century-design Italian guns like Cheney has. I'll try to find my camera, and show off my silly-looking pimped Mossy. Closest thing a normal civilian can carry to the firepower of a Tommy gun. Very serious home protetion, and friendly fire is somewhat lessened with the short range of a scattergun.
BTW, filthy, the old 2002 photo of Cheney hunting elsewhere on this thread seems to show the same kind of over-and-under configuration as in the Perazzi photo I separately posted above. I don't know from chokes, but I don't see any. Could one be fitted to that kind of gun, with two barrels so close together? If not, this might simplfy or eliminate the choking variable of any experiment.
What we know to test: 28 gauge, 7.5 shot, various factory loads, fired from a (I think) 28" barrel, hitting a target at 30 yards. And ideally, shots at lesser and greater ranges as well. It would be ideal to have a man-sized paper target over, let's say, a couple of layers of cloth to represent Harry's shirt and hunting vest, with maybe a watermelon behind all that. That way, we'd be comparing patterns to that in the game warden's report, and testing penetration at he same time. Know anyone with a 28-guage, non-gas-operated gun?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2006 : 20:38:43 [Permalink]
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On a double gun and indeed, on most single barrels, the choke is made into it and it's merely a short taper in the end of the bore. It's not adjustable, and double barreled guns have one barrel choked tighter than the other to tighten the pattern and make the second, longer shot more effective. Cheney's gun is probably choked improved cylinder and modified, which would be the choice I'd make in a double quail gun.
A Polychoke is an attachment on the muzzle that can be adjusted, and is only for single barrels. Your gun, as it is primarly a defense weapon (although due to it's light weight and configuration, it would be a decent sporting arm) is probably a 'cylinder bore' -- that is; simply a straight pipe. From there, chokes tighten down to 'improved cylinder,' 'modified,' and 'full.'
I've learned that several removable choke kits are available for the 500 in exchange for $$.
Heh, when I was a kid, I once went goose hunting with an uncle. He loaned me a 10 gauge goose gun, choked down like the nozzle on a fire hose, and a quanity of hand loaded, paper shells. It had excellent effective range and I shot a nice canada (and missed several more), but that thing was murder on both ends! I think that hunt was the one that taught me how to handle excessive recoil, 'cause I've only ever fired one gun that was worse -- a .73 cal muzzle-loading rifle that I'd accidently double charged (dumbass!).
It is indeed good that Whittington is now out and about, but I still wonder: might that pellet, or pellets, in/near his heart travel and cause him problems?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2006 : 02:36:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
...I still wonder: might that pellet, or pellets, in/near his heart travel and cause him problems?
Perhaps he might have more afib. but I don't think the pellets will move much. Your body tends to wall off foreign bodies with connective tissue. Lots of people have lots of things in their bodies which are left in as removing them offers no benefit.
I thought it interesting he really didn't have many spots on his face. I wonder how many pellets hit the neck and chest? |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2006 : 01:21:14 [Permalink]
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Starman, that was way cool, thanks!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2006 : 05:05:48 [Permalink]
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Gotcha, you lying, incompentent, drunken piece of unspeakable offal! quote:
a ten minute "see-for-yourself" report that conclusively shows that Vice President Dick Cheney's claims to Kennedy County Sherriff's Deputies in south Texas is a total fabrication.
A massive cover-up has been conducted concerning the shooting. We know that most of the facts that have been told to the public are manufactured frauds. Cheney claims that he shot Whittington at 90 feet, ballistic tests from the spread of the shotgun pellets to their penetration depth is 100% conclusive.
Harry Whittington was shot at close range, between 15 and 18 feet, not the 90 claimed by Dick Cheney and the Secret Service. It is now clear why they refused to let Sherriff's Deputies interview Cheney for over 13 hours and why they claimed that Whittington's injuries were superficial when in truth they were grevious.
The mainstream media is ignoring this literal smoking gun evidence. Anytime they wish, the local police can conduct their own ballistics tests and they will have the exact same findings. The media can conduct their own tests. The ballistics of shotguns and birdshot is well known to tens of millions of Americans who hunt fowl.
We have now scientifically proven with an engineer and a police officer on-site conducting the test that the American people are being lied to and a cover-up is in progress.
According to this, even my 10 yard estimate was a little long.
I want to see this sorry rat-bastard of a criminal administration impeached, tried for their crimes, and locked up where they can do no more damage to the country -- Marion, IL would be a good place. Or Gitmo. Indeed, I am not in favor of capital punishment, but I'd happily make an exception for this pack of totalitarian assholes and call it a job well done.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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