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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 03/02/2006 : 11:13:29 [Permalink]
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Bill wrote: quote:
If the cause was not eternal then it would require a beginning and therefor it would not be the first cause.
So you are claiming that the creator is eternal even though science has proven that time itself is part of nature, and thus, a supernatural creator would not be eternal since the whole concept of “eternal” is dependent on time, which is natural.
Bill wrote: quote:
The atheist position will contend that they believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that small tiny particles, at the atomic level, have been observed popping in and out of existence. If so, they have provided evidence for a possible second dimension. From there the philosophy is really poured on thick as the atheist will hypothesize that if there might be a second dimension then we can just assume there will be an infinite amount of dimensions to choose from. The atheist will next speculate, based on nothing, that in this possible second dimension, time and space must be seriously distorted. If it is not, then in one of the infinite amount of dimensions that they speculated, for no reason were out there, one would. Or least they speculate that one of them would. In this one dimension they speculate that maybe time and space, as we know them, are suspended or distorted, and from this speculative dimension, in which they have no evidence that it exists, the matter that might have been used in the cause of the big bang may have existed, we speculate.
What? Second dimention? Do you just make this stuff up as you go along? What scientist or philosopher argues any of this? Bill, you have seriously failed to understand any of the physics presented in this discussion.
quote:
As expected the atheist goes for eternal existence as is all they have.
Have you been paying any attention? Many of us have been trying to point out to you that “eternal” is irrelevant when talking about how the natural world came about because the concept of eternity is dependent on time and time itself is part of nature. Wrap your brain around the concept that time hasn't always been around and then see where your cause and effect ends up.
Bill wrote:quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
When a lawyer finds a loophole in the law, he wants to exploit a legislator's mistake. When a scientist discovers a loophole in a natural law, he's uncovered a deeper truth about the natural world. Your analogy is false.
(bill) Here is a perfect example of marf trying to slip in her false analogy, and she is slick at it. I was comparing atheists to defense attorneys and she changes the topic in mid conversation to scientists and lawyers. As if all atheists are, by default, scientists. She knows atheism is much more wrapped in philosophy then law.
You originally posed your lawyer analogy in response to the Paul Davies article, specifically, you clipped a quote from Davies saying “But the loophole is there”, and then you wrote in response:
quote:
(bill) Are you lawyers, or seekers of truth? A good defense attorney can get win the freedom of a guilty child molester by exploiting loop |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 03/02/2006 11:20:23 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 12:02:50 [Permalink]
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It's a waste of time, Marf. While Bill's [/b]talent for spewing unsupported bullshit and outright crap appear to be staggering, unfortunatly he's been repeating himself for lo, these many pages. "He got no stuff!" as the ball players used to say.
But what the hell, it's a slow day... Ok chump, which god is it that you have such a limp erection over, and what proofs do you have for it's existence?
Heh, I'm about as likely to get a coherent answer to that as I am get a little honesty from the lout currently in the White house.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 13:40:11 [Permalink]
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filthy said:
quote:
But what the hell, it's a slow day... Ok chump, which god is it that you have such a limp erection over, and what proofs do you have for it's existence?
He already told us.... the universe exists, therefore it had to have been caused, therefore god-did-it!.
That is all the "proof" people such as Bill need.
You will never convince him he is wrong, because he willfully chooses ignorance. If his religion required the sky to be red, you can sure as hell bet that he'd be telling you the sky was red, and you are a moron for thinking it is blue.
Kinda like you'll never convince those Redskins fans who dress in drag for games that they should be Bucs fans.
But come on... lets give Bill some credit here. He has sucessfully refuted most of his own claims in this thread. For example his claim that he understands logic. He has blown that one right out of the water.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 14:15:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
He already told us.... the universe exists, therefore it had to have been caused, therefore god-did-it!.
That is all the "proof" people such as Bill need.
And we're just incredibly dense for asking what caused god, since bill defines god as eternal and uncaused! See how easy and logical it is? I'm going to try and hide from bill's flawless and piercing reasoning behind my smoke and mirrors now.
P.S. Bill, you must also believe that a boogey man lives under your bed because the boogey man is defined as the monster which lives under beds.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/02/2006 14:16:29 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 15:12:12 [Permalink]
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I'm pretty sure he's some species of Christian, but don't hold me to that. He might be one of the Kool-Aid drinkers or waiting for the next comet so's he can catch a ride in the spaceship hiding in it's tail. Hell, I've lost track anyway, and can't tell one Christian cult from another.
I like the Boogyman! He puts on a good show, there on Smackdown. Sure does waste a lot of perfectly good fishbait, though.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 16:37:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
(Bill)For the atheist to say we don't know but we know it ain't a god is just as juvenile.
For Bill to say I know and I know it ain't LIEs is just as juvenile. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 18:29:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
How do you know common sense is void if you admittedly no nothing about before the big bang? Or do you base this off of your philosophy on what preceded the BB?
I don't know that common sense is "void" prior to the Big Bang, I was simply pointing out that your assertion that throwing out common sense is somehow "wrong" is, itself, wrong because we know of plenty of situation in which common sense is wrong.quote:
Including a deity then right? It not what are you basing that on if you cannot know for sure? Let me guess, your atheistic philosophy?
What the hell are you talking about?quote:
See, but the last time I looked eternal existence was a attribute of deity.
When and where did you look? I see a tremendously wide variety of deities, some of whom are described as living forever, and others who aren't.quote:
Because a deity, by definition, is eternal.
Well, as far as I can tell, that is a definition of "deity" which you have invented. Heracles certainly has all the attributes of a deity, despite being born mortal.quote:
Your eternal matter is based on your philosophy of what might have happened previous to the big bang and nothing else.
Liar.quote:
Of coarse you put eternal matter in this group as well, right?
I don't know of any "eternal matter."quote:
Claiming it exists in speculative others is pure philosophy.
As is claiming God exists.quote:
Fair enough, but that makes the atheistic rubber stamp of a high probability of no god/deity just as juvenile.
Atheists don't tend to base their conclusions of the absence of a god on a guess about the origins of the universe. Instead, they tend to base their conclusions on the lack of evidence for any god's existence, despite people searching for such evidence for thousands of years.quote:
For the atheist to say we don't know but we know it ain't a god is just as juvenile.
I think you're lying that anyone has said that, just as you've lied about what I've said.
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 20:13:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
P.S. Bill, you must also believe that a boogey man lives under your bed because the boogey man is defined as the monster which lives under beds.
LOL That's perfect!!! I knew catching up with this thread would be worthwhile. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 20:14:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
But, if you “ hold the position that we cannot know what occured before the Big Bang, so all options are equally as likely” then you must give equal probability to common sense being in effect before BB as much as common sense being “wrong” before BB. How could you not? There is a wall that separates you from knowing. So you must give each position equal probability as you just “don't know” otherwise.
That's exactly my point: your insistence that "suspending common sense" is somehow wrong is not supported by any evidence. There's a chance that common sense doesn't apply.quote:
quote:
quote:
Including a deity then right? It not what are you basing that on if you cannot know for sure? Let me guess, your atheistic philosophy?
What the hell are you talking about?
What am I talking about? OK let me review your last post.
No, I wanted you to say what you said using actual English rather than that "it not what" gobbledegook.quote:
quote:
I hold the position that we cannot know what occured before the Big Bang, so all options are equally as likely.
So I reminded you that this would include the notion of a deity as the eternal first cause as well.
And I said, "so what?"quote:
You have to give equal probability to this position as you would any philosophical atheistic position. How could you not? You your self admit: “ I hold the position that we cannot know what occured "before" the Big Bang, so all options are equally as likely” To say all options are equal, except God, as a first cause just shows your bias as you fully admit that “you don't know. Even to give higher probability to atheistic philosophy over God as the first cause shows your bias as you truly can't prove that statement, by your own admission.
Well, considering that I never exempted a God from being a possible "first cause of the universe," I have no idea what you're going on about. If you'd argue against what I say, rather than inventing childish crappola for me, this would probably go a lot easier.quote:
quote:
When and where did you look? I see a tremendously wide variety of deities, some of whom are described as living forever, and others who aren't.
Well if they are not eternal then they are not the first cause of the universe, there for they are not God.
Yup, I was right: you don't have a logical argument to make for God being the cause of the universe, you've defined God to be the cause of the uni |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 21:06:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
]Originally posted by DaveW
Instead, they tend to base their conclusions on the lack of evidence for any god's existence, despite people searching for such evidence for thousands of years.
(bill) Lack of evidence? You have based your atheism and your disbelief in God, or your reason to give him low probability, on your dreamt up philosophy and your bias. In one breath you state, “I hold the position that we cannot know what occured before the Big Bang, so all options are equally as likely” and in the next breath you dismiss God for a lack of evidence. How, if you “don't know and cannot know?”
Are you acknowleding that we cannot know whether your god exists? That is the only honest and reasonable position to hold since there is a lack of evidence to support your god or any other.
So "If all options are equally likely" we are not talking about just two options, as you are. Since we don't know there could be a infinite number of possible options. With all options being equal that would put the probability of your god being responsible very very low, indeed. If you want to improve the probability of your god explanation. Simply show some evidence. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 23:02:49 [Permalink]
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filthy wrote: quote:
It's a waste of time, Marf.
What can I say? I'm a glutton for punishment. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 04:18:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
filthy wrote: quote:
It's a waste of time, Marf.
What can I say? I'm a glutton for punishment.
As, it would seem, alas, am I....  Why else bother with this eternal clusterfuck?
I think I might be beginning to understand Bill's ever sillier references to atheists. He has, a number of times, called atheism a "philosophy" and at least once, even more laughably: a "religion." In fact, atheism might be considered an absence of philosophy, which leaves us free to explore any philosophies blinkered by none of them. Most philosophers are full of shit, anyway.
And as for it all being a religion -- *chuckle* -- what sort of religion might that be? The worship of heresy? I practice a lot of heresy (heresy is fun and a round of gleeful blasphemy even more so) but to lend it any serious credence would be pointless and indeed, ridiculous. Heresy in religious context can only exist if God exists, and that has yet to be confirmed. Heh, to be a serious heretic, I might well have to go to church.
Churchy invests a lot time and devotion, as well cash, to his faith. The pimps purveyors of that faith have historically kept it in business by insisting that Churchy pledges tithes, and by passing the hat at every opportunity (check out AiG. Their styrofoam cup is rattling all the time). Around my neck of the woods, they sometimes raise funds by holding fish frys, which, of course, attracts the local atheist, who likes fried fish and hush puppies and cole slaw, and is willing to fork over a few $ for a plate, lack of beliefs not withstanding.
Speaking of AiG, Bill, what might be your opinion on this?
In all fairness, some portion of these monies go toward various charities and disasters, and that atheist usually donates through a local church, provided that the fund is a special one dedicated to the charity and/or disaster and not to further church opulence.
In short, to put any sort of philosophical lable on atheists and agnostics is futil because you really can't lable the absence of a philosophy any more than you can prove any other negative -- does that make sense...?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 05:41:52 [Permalink]
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Actually, bill is probably closer to the truth than most. He realizes that SOMETHING has to be eternal. Unfortunately it was not a paternal omnipotent deity or nature wouldn't be such a 'motha'. It was the Universe itself and everything in it. Nothing 'pops' into or out of existence. Existence is not a condition.
It is demonstrable that cause and effect is NOT the principle which explains existence - whether BIG BANG or GENESIS |
I would procrastinate but I never seem to get around to it. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 06:51:02 [Permalink]
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THoR said:
quote:
Nothing 'pops' into or out of existence. Existence is not a condition.
Well.....
From the article:
quote:
The vacuum is seething with activity. Particles continuously come into existence and go out of existence all of the time.
We live in a strange universe.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 07:58:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by THoR
Actually, bill is probably closer to the truth than most. He realizes that SOMETHING has to be eternal.
Why does something have to be eternal?quote:
It was the Universe itself and everything in it.
So can it be said that you're a steady-state proponent along the lines of Einstein?quote:
Nothing 'pops' into or out of existence.
Well, you might pick a different descriptor, but I think that "pops" is a perfectly good one for, say, the sudden existence of sound waves in the air after I clap my hands together.quote:
Existence is not a condition.
Sure it is: things either exist or they don't.quote:
It is demonstrable that cause and effect is NOT the principle which explains existence - whether BIG BANG or GENESIS
Okay, go ahead and demonstrate it, then. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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