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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 03/03/2006 : 10:33:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Nothing 'pops' into or out of existence.
Better take a quantum mechanics refresher THoR.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 13:02:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
But, if you “ hold the position that we cannot know what occured before the Big Bang, so all options are equally as likely” then you must give equal probability to common sense being in effect before BB as much as common sense being “wrong” before BB. How could you not? There is a wall that separates you from knowing. So you must give each position equal probability as you just “don't know” otherwise.
That's exactly my point: your insistence that "suspending common sense" is somehow wrong is not supported by any evidence. There's a chance that common sense doesn't apply.quote:
quote:
quote:
Including a deity then right? It not what are you basing that on if you cannot know for sure? Let me guess, your atheistic philosophy?
What the hell are you talking about?
What am I talking about? OK let me review your last post.
No, I wanted you to say what you said using actual English rather than that "it not what" gobbledegook.quote:
quote:
I hold the position that we cannot know what occured before the Big Bang, so all options are equally as likely.
So I reminded you that this would include the notion of a deity as the eternal first cause as well.
And I said, "so what?"quote:
You have to give equal probability to this position as you would any philosophical atheistic position. How could you not? You your self admit: “ I hold the position that we cannot know what occured "before" the Big Bang, so all options are equally as likely” To say all options are equal, except God, as a first cause just shows your bias as you fully admit that “you don't know. Even to give higher probability to atheistic philosophy over God as the first cause shows your bias as you truly can't prove that statement, by your own admission.
Well, considering that I never exempted a God from being a possible "first cause of the universe," I have no idea what you're going on about. If you'd argue against what I say, rather than inventing childish crappola for me, this would probably go a lot easier.quote:
quote:
When and where did you look? I see a tremendously wide variety of deities, some of whom are described as living forever, and others who aren't.
Well if they are not eternal then they are not the first cause of the universe, there for they are not God.
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 13:37:17 [Permalink]
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filthy wrote: quote:
In fact, atheism might be considered an absence of philosophy, which leaves us free to explore any philosophies blinkered by none of them.
While I totally agree with you that atheism is not in-of-itself a philosphy, and it is indeed laughable that atheism is in-of-itself a religion, being an atheist doesn't mean one doesn't have a philosphy. I only means they lack of belief in God. The Dalai Lama has called Tibetan Buddhism an "atheistic religion". The atheists in my Humanist group, and I myself, ascribe to that wonderfully nondogmatic philosophy. And many consider Confucianism, which can and has been followed by atheists, a religion, though it is most certainly at least a philosophy. Diogenes was an atheist, but he espoused and followed the philosophy of Cynicism.
I tend to just think of atheism as the opposite of theism. And nobody says that theism in-of-itself is a religion or philosophy. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 14:16:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
(bill) Again, I was just pointing out that God would get equal probability under your guidelines of “we cannot know what occured "before" the Big Bang, so all options are equally as likely” and I wanted you to say it.
The problem you're having with this, Bill, is that you are assuming two equally probable explanations for the universe: "god-did-it" and "no-god". That is the basic mistake you are making and why you are having such difficulty with this concept.
Yes, the god possibility gets equal probability as all others. There are, however, more than two possibilities. In fact, there are an almost infinite number of possibilities. This means the probability of god, being just one of the almost infinite possibilities, is vanishingly small. Add to that the overwhelming lack of evidence for any god whatsoever at any time, any where, and you can see why a reasonable person might not believe that one (or more) exists. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 14:21:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Ok here is the problem. The universe exists, we all agree. We know the universe had a beginning as we see it expanding. We cannot see before the creation of the universe, and we recognize the beginning of the universe as the beginning of time as we know it.
From there the atheist will inject philosophy as science and give their position victory with a self proclaimed higher probability rating over any other position.
No, here is the problem: you, Bill, defined "God" to be the creator of the universe, and then tried to pass off your personal definition as a logical conclusion. When that failed, you switched to claiming that atheists have some sort of "bias," but your only evidence for it is your own personal refusal to understand other points of view which don't agree with your definition of God as the creator of the universe.quote:
So they will inject their philosophy of infinite unknown universes and dimensions and fully admit that it is pure speculation, but in the next breath they will use this philosophical speculation to attack the position that “god did it” as so highly improbable that those who subscribe to the notion should be considered morons.
No, you're considered a moron because you continue to try to pass off transparent lies as truth, despite what your God tells you about lying.quote:
So how would they know who had higher probability, God, or atheistic philosophy of infinite universes and dimensions where anything can happen? There is a wall where we can not see before the big bang so “so all options are equally as likely”.
All options are equally likely, including the option that a hyperintelligent shade of blue created the universe we inhabit.quote:
They give higher probability to atheism because of bias and nothing else.
No, I give a higher probability to there being no God now because I see no evidence for God whatsoever. What may or may not have existed prior to the Big Bang is anybody's guess.quote:
No, I wanted you to say God has equal probability as any atheistic philosophy does.
The odds that any sort of god created the universe are equal to the odds of any non-deific origin, but that doesn't mean that the odds that your God exists now are equally as likely as the alternative.quote:
Right, I forget you guys always throw in the disclaimer in tiny little print of: “we hold there to be a 0.01% of God as the eternal first cause.” for good measure. Of coarse how can we take you serious when in the very previous breath you spouted off: “we cannot know what occured "before" the Big Bang, so all options are equally as likely”. Your just bias against any God notion even though you claim that “we cannot know what occured "before" the Big Bang, so all options are equally as likely”.
Not at all. Mathematically, "some |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 14:30:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by R.Wreck
...is vanishingly small...
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Beat me by five minutes!
What are the odds??!!!! |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 15:41:31 [Permalink]
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Being as how one man's speculation is as good as another's re: the genesis of the universe, I posit this:
The universe was violently regurgitated by the Eternal Skink after foolishly devouring the Eternal Dingleberry. The vengeful Berry cursed the Skink, dooming it to roam forever with it's tongue painted berry blue as a signal to all of it's sin and it's greed. It left the universe behind it in the form of an expanding puddle of variegated puke.
How's 'bout that one?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 15:48:27 [Permalink]
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I didn't know you could say "Dingleberry" on this forum!?!!?!
Dingleberry Dingleberry Dingleberry Dingleberry Dingleberry Dingleberry Dingleberry Dingleberry Dingleberry Dingleberry Dingleberry Dingleberry
now I feel better. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 15:50:22 [Permalink]
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filthy wrote: quote:
The universe was violently regurgitated by the Eternal Skink after foolishly devouring the Eternal Dingleberry. The vengeful Berry cursed the Skink, dooming it to roam forever with it's tongue painted berry blue as a signal to all of it's sin and it's greed. It left the universe behind it in the form of an expanding puddle of variegated puke.
Yay, blue-tongued skinks! I had one of those. Bought her from a pet shop that had nicknamed her "Atilla". I asked why. They said because she broke through the wall of her tank and got into where the anoles were housed - and ate them all. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 16:24:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
filthy wrote: quote:
The universe was violently regurgitated by the Eternal Skink after foolishly devouring the Eternal Dingleberry. The vengeful Berry cursed the Skink, dooming it to roam forever with it's tongue painted berry blue as a signal to all of it's sin and it's greed. It left the universe behind it in the form of an expanding puddle of variegated puke.
Yay, blue-tongued skinks! I had one of those. Bought her from a pet shop that had nicknamed her "Atilla". I asked why. They said because she broke through the wall of her tank and got into where the anoles were housed - and ate them all.
Blue-tongues are neat, aren't they? They are ideal for a 'pet' lizard -- even tempered, and easy keepers, and have that dazzling tongue. I've seen them nearly 2 feet long.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 21:10:27 [Permalink]
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Filthy wrote: quote:
Blue-tongues are neat, aren't they? They are ideal for a 'pet' lizard -- even tempered, and easy keepers, and have that dazzling tongue. I've seen them nearly 2 feet long.
Oh yeah, they're great. My Tila was about only about 14 inches long, but she was beautiful. An Indonesian type (T. gigas gigas). She was super gentle and liked chillin' out with people: on the front porch, the laundry mat, once at a small party. But she didn't like cats; I had three and she bit two of them. I miss her - had to give her away when I took a job in South Korea. Can't wait 'til my hubby and I get a house and I can get lizards again. Snakes are cool, but I just love how lizards wiggle when they walk.
You know, for two seconds I got all worried about changing the subject, but then I remembered that this is an "all-skate" (because when Bill can't win an argument, he changes the subject.) Hurrah! |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
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Topic Locked
