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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 02/27/2006 : 15:30:37 [Permalink]
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marfknox said:
quote:
I wasn't aware you had a crystal ball that allows you to see the answers to questions that even professional political analysts and activists debate about.
See what I mean? You can't even refrain from being rude when responding to others. At this point I expect nothing less that utter hypocrisy from you anyway, glad to see that you aren't going to dissapoint.
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But to knock off the sarcasm, can you at least say how you arrive at this sure conclusion? The Republican party is significantly split on abortion (notice Senator Spector being a block for judicial nominees who are anti-choice), and the majority of Americans are still in favor of legal abortion
The idea that Sen Specter "blocks" any nominee who is "anti-choice" is laughable. Alito, Roberts... do you honestly think either of them are pro-choice?
The republican party is "significantly split" on abortion only in the same way that the democratic party is "significantly split" on it. A few members of each party don't toe the party line on this issue.
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Also, Roe v Wade being overturned would most certainly hurt the Republican party because it would mobilize a lot of apathetic liberals. Also, as many politically apathetic fundamentalists that it might rouse, it would also appall huge numbers of Republicans and moderates who support legal abortion. Sure I could be wrong. It is impossible to predict such things. But the possibility is obvious.
Yeah... suddenly the apathetic are gonna jump up and be offended... riiight..
Overturning RvW will do nothing but rally the radical right's base. The right-wing won't be harmed in the slightest.
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Not to mention that one of my points was that if Roe gets overturned, Republicans might very well not be able to maintain a majority.
Wishfull thinking.
The republicans are going to retain their majority until the democrats pull their collective heads out of their asses. They should be out in huge numbers picking W apart on national security. It is their only hope of winning back a majority this year, and they are pissing it away.
Every democrat in the legislature should be publicly calling for the impeachment of the president over his violation of the FISA law and his violation of the law that requires him to full brief the intel commitees of the house and senate.
But that is all way off topic...
If the republicans maintain a legislative majority, and this SD case gets to SCOTUS, and SCOTUS rules in its favor (essentially they would have to overturn RvW to make that ruling) (the court has been stacked with justices who will love to overturn RvW), then the way is open for federal anti-abortion legislation.
While that is something of a slippery slope, it is not entirely unplausible.
You can examine the voting recored of congress on various abortion related issues here.
quote:
But if you are suggesting that the federal government would enact a ban on all abortions, I think that is just ridiculous.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 15:53:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
I've been afraid to say that the zygote has the “potential” to do all the stuff that alive things do because you could come back at me with the whole sperm and egg also having that potential.
It's even worse than that. A rapist's urge to rape a woman has the potential to become a human being. Therefore it must be against God's will to stop a rape in progress.
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But the difference is that the zygote is the complete organism.
Hardly. The zygote has the blueprints to become a complete organism, but it will not be "complete" until it is able to, or equipped to, live separate from its mother.
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Just because it has a fatal genetic flaw and only lives for a few hours or a few days or weeks or months, doesn't mean it is not alive.
I'm not sure anyone is contending that.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 16:19:18 [Permalink]
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| Those are good points Dr M. The first one may come in handy for me in future posts on other forums. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 16:29:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
If we agree that all lines are arbitrary then shouldn't we use the most conservative approach and use conception as the line to define human life? ... If we don't know then shouldn't we define life at conception?
These are two different issues and neither follows "shouldn't" without an individual's opinion interjected.
If it's arbitrary, then shouldn't we follow the most liberal approach?
If it's arbitrary, then shouldn't we leave it up to the pregnant woman?
If it's arbitrary, then shouldn't we use viability outside of the womb which falls in the middle as the rule?
If we don't know then shouldn't we define life when it's able to actually be a life outside of the womb instead of some artificial determination? |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 16:31:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
In an attempt to bring this back to Roe v Wade being overturned, a liberal coworker of mine firmly believes that Roe v Wade being overturned would be a good thing. I don't agree with him, but his argument is interesting and I think it might have some merit. He says that since Roe is the only issue that truly unites the pathetic mess that is the Democratic party, if Roe was overturned, it would finally "wake up" lots of liberals who have had their heads in the sand. Mobilized and unified, it would strengthen the left, and that would lead to victories in key elections and much good legislation.
I argued: "But what about all the women who would suffer when Roe is overturned?" He rolled his eyes and scoffed because in rural and conservative areas, women already don't have adequate access to abortion. Roe v Wade being overturned doesn't mean abortion would be illegal. It means it would be up to states, and of course all the blue states are going to keep it legal, and even most if not all red states will keep it legal to some degree – but only in extreme cases. The point being, while Roe v Wade being overturned would change some things, those changes might not be all the dramatic, and the political consequences could be much greater.
My coworker also argued that this is why the Republicans will never overturn Roe v Wade; they know if would hurt them real bad politically.
Thoughts?
Well that makes it a win win for everyone either way. A paradox! |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 16:33:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
My coworker also argued that this is why the Republicans will never overturn Roe v Wade; they know if would hurt them real bad politically.
How, exactly, would this hurt them?
It's been discussed in many circles that the abortion and gay issues get Republican voters who otherwise might actually look at the more important issues and not vote Republican. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 17:07:30 [Permalink]
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beskeptigal said:
quote:
It's been discussed in many circles that the abortion and gay issues get Republican voters who otherwise might actually look at the more important issues and not vote Republican.
My point exactly. These issues don't hurt republicans in any way, they only help them.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 17:10:06 [Permalink]
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In my opinion, if the Theonazi's outlaw abortion, they would simply be free to move on to the next step in their agendas on the road to outright "Biblical" law. How about banning contraception? Outlawing single-sex couple adoptions? Punishing homosexuality under the law? Requiring Bible studies in public classrooms? They would hardly be out of hot-button issues, in my opinion.
Reaction to the overturning of Roe v Wade is something that also has to be seriously considered. This event might, finally, mobilize the moderate left. Hard to tell for certain.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 17:54:47 [Permalink]
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Half said:
quote:
This event might, finally, mobilize the moderate left. Hard to tell for certain.
A war launched on a false pretense, an administration that exclusively consults private indistry (and refuses to release the details of the meetings) for it's energy policies, a President who openly tells the world that god told him to invade Iraq, corruption at all-time high levels, republican senators who fear the greatest threat to the US is the "gay agenda", the appointment of two hardcore anti-choice conservatives to SCOTUS, a president who breaks the law at his whim (domestic spying, failing to properly notify congress of his intel gathering activities, etc), a VP who can shoot a guy in the face and cover it up while he sobers up and then have the guy he shot apologize to him, a continued effort to break down decades of environmental legislation and replace it with pure spin (clean coal, clear skies), a rabid denial that global warming is even occuring, A president who submits a bill to ammend the US constitution to specifically prevent same sex marriages, a decision to sell port management to an Arab government (a gov that supported the Taliban, who helped A.Q. Khan distribute nuclear technology), 25,000 US casualties and 2500 deaths in Iraq, ....
I could go on and on here.
If that isn't enough to "motivate" the apathetic non-voting "moderates" in the US.... then banning abortion outright isn't going to get them to the polls.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 02/27/2006 18:01:05 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 18:13:40 [Permalink]
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In my experience, such political turnabouts happen fairly suddenly, sort of like political "punctuated equilibrium." The deficits of a ruling party mount up over time, with the opposition not seeming to make much if any progress. Then a leader within the opposition arises, suddenly crystallizing the supersaturated solution of potential opposition. The opposition's base suddenly begins to see real hope, and the whole political dynamic changes overnight. This always surprises most people.
Of course, only future events will show which of us is right about this, Dude. I'm willing to concede I could be wrong, but I've seen this before.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/27/2006 18:14:37 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 22:22:55 [Permalink]
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Half said:
quote:
Of course, only future events will show which of us is right about this, Dude. I'm willing to concede I could be wrong, but I've seen this before.
I may just be overly pessimistic.
But until something that happens to get these apathetic moderates off the couch, the situation isn't going to change.
And, frankly, if the bullshit from this admin to date isn't enough, then I doubt anything will be enough.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 23:15:40 [Permalink]
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Dude sez: quote:
I may just be overly pessimistic.
Or I, overly optimistic.
Dude conclude: quote:
But until something that happens to get these apathetic moderates off the couch, the situation isn't going to change.
And, frankly, if the bullshit from this admin to date isn't enough, then I doubt anything will be enough.
I think one other factor may be at work. A lot of people who bitterly oppose Bush may not even want to invest their "give-a-shit" until they see an actual mechanism for change close at hand. They'll sit back on their cynicism until they see something likely to work. Can't much blame them: Effectively, there's no mechanism they can use until the mid-term elections late this year. If those elections swing against the Republicans, people will start to stand up and seriously look around for an opposition Presidential candidate.
(If not, move over on that cynic's couch, and make room for me, Dude!)
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/27/2006 23:17:00 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2006 : 00:17:39 [Permalink]
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Dude wrote: quote:
See what I mean? You can't even refrain from being rude when responding to others. At this point I expect nothing less that utter hypocrisy from you anyway, glad to see that you aren't going to dissapoint.
What are you, a broken record? Didn't we already cover this? Didn't I already concede where I thought you were right and defend myself where I thought you were simplifying and twisting the situation in your accusations about me being a hypocrite? Or did I just dream it all?
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The idea that Sen Specter "blocks" any nominee who is "anti-choice" is laughable. Alito, Roberts... do you honestly think either of them are pro-choice?
No, I don't think they are pro-choice. But as I've made quite clear in this discussion, I do not think abortion is a black and white issue, pro-choice or anti-abortion. There is tons of grey. Spector was talked about in the news constantly as the big block for any nominees who would overturn Roe v Wade. I don't think Alito or Roberts are going to overturn Roe v Wade. Of course I could be wrong about this; such things are not predictable, even by the best of analysts. But Arlen Spector stated quite clearly that he would not approve a nominee that he thought would overturn Roe v Wade.
quote:
quote:
Also, Roe v Wade being overturned would most certainly hurt the Republican party because it would mobilize a lot of apathetic liberals. Also, as many politically apathetic fundamentalists that it might rouse, it would also appall huge numbers of Republicans and moderates who support legal abortion. Sure I could be wrong. It is impossible to predict such things. But the possibility is obvious.
Yeah... suddenly the apathetic are gonna jump up and be offended... riiight..
Since 2000 I've read articles in newspapers and magazines like The Economist, Spectator and The Nation, as well as interviews on NPR talking about this as a real possibility. Maybe they are wrong and you are right. But I keep reading poll after poll that shows that the majority of Americans still support legal abortion. A Gallup poll taken in June 2005 that found 65% of Americans supporting the Roe v Wade decision. And then I see Bush side-stepping the litmus test for judicial nominees even though he claims to be strongly pro-life. If overturning Roe will not harm the right-wing “in the slightest”, and the Republicans have a majority in federal government, then why didn't Bush use a litmus test for nominees? After all, wouldn't that really rally their radical base?
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quote:
Not to mention that one of my points was that if Roe gets overturned, Republicans might very well not be able to maintain a majority.
Wishfull thinking.
How? They are barely holding on to a majority now.
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They should be out in huge numbers picking W apart on national security. It is their only hope of winning back a majority this year, and they are pissing it away.
Actually, there is a lot of political theory that says when you are the minority, |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2006 : 02:34:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Those are good points Dr M. The first one may come in handy for me in future posts on other forums.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/jer/1.html
Jeremiah 1:5 is often cited as biblical proof that even before you were born, God had a Plan(tm) for You. And then points out that because of that, abortion is murder. However, KJV says: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;" (emphasis mine) clearly indicates that actions taking place before the conception is known by God to produce the person. Hence stopping someone from committing an act of rape has the potential of having the same result as an abortion. Which is equated to murder.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2006 : 06:39:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
In my experience, such political turnabouts happen fairly suddenly, sort of like political "punctuated equilibrium." The deficits of a ruling party mount up over time, with the opposition not seeming to make much if any progress. Then a leader within the opposition arises, suddenly crystallizing the supersaturated solution of potential opposition. The opposition's base suddenly begins to see real hope, and the whole political dynamic changes overnight. This always surprises most people.
Of course, only future events will show which of us is right about this, Dude. I'm willing to concede I could be wrong, but I've seen this before.
It's also been my experience that the more moderate members of the "ruling party" start getting very vocal in criticism of the extremists within their party when a shift may be imminent. The push back the Pres is recieving on domestic spying while ignoring the CONINTELPRO reforms is heartening.
We've actually seen a potential leader rise in the opposition party. He is currently governor of Virginia.
I've been around politics for long enough to note the change is in the air. If the "ruling party" doesn't moderate soon (and by all indications the people in charge will stop pushing their radical agenda when they're dead), the have a likely chance of being bounced out on their ear. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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