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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 02/23/2006 : 13:00:34 [Permalink]
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Verso, define where life begins and ends.
Half said:
quote:
Verso, your desire to force women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term (let's be honest, that's what the anti-abortion argument is about) is not only despicable patriarchal medievalism on its face,
Actually, abortion wasn't considered a bad thing in medieval times. Or at any point in history prior to the rise of these christian fundies. The methods were not as sofisticated as what we have available now, but a sturdy dose of the right herb....
People used to leave infants out to die from exposure, as accepted practice, if they had deformities (or, in some cases, they were the wrong sex).
People like verso are nothing more than dupes. They are led around by their easily manipulated emotional state, and used as nothing more than a political tool.
The real battle, fully known by their manipulators, is over things much more important than life or death. It is about power, control, and who gets that power and control.
The entire "pro-life" movement is nothing but a screen for those who want to impose their narrowminded worldview on other people.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 13:15:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
quote:
The anti-abortionists use the "where do you draw the line" argument only for obfuscation. In fact, they and the laws they sponsor actually "draw the line" at "protecting" an unimplanted single-cell fertilized ovum. That definition is what freedom of choice people are actually fighting against in the US.
Are you joking? For obfuscation?
Where we draw the line is THEE matter.
The only non-arbitrary place to draw the line is at conception.
The egg is not a human - it has no human potential on it's own. The sperm is not a human - it has no human potential on it's own. But once they come together, that "zygote," "fetus" or whatever else you want to call it - has a life expectancy of about 80 years - it is a human life.
And a flag is called on the play!
Misuse of statistics! 15 yards.
Herein lies the serious problem with your post.
The average life expectancy rate is based on live births only. Abortions (elective and spontaneous) are not included in that number which by volume would drastically reduce such a number. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 13:17:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Actually, abortion wasn't considered a bad thing in medieval times. Or at any point in history prior to the rise of these christian fundies. The methods were not as sofisticated as what we have available now, but a sturdy dose of the right herb....
True, Dude. Anti-abortionism is mainly a modern invention. I meant "medievalism" in the sense of a priest-ridden, theocratic society. Consider also that the people dispensing the abortificant herbs you mention were often witches, or thought to be witches, and were being hunted down and burned by church and state authorities. Whether that was because witches were sometimes abortionists or thought to be heretics, I'm personally unsure.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/23/2006 13:31:02 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 13:28:35 [Permalink]
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Verso, two simple questions for you:
1) Be open and honest this time. Is or is not your position a religious one? If so, support it by citing chapter and verse from your scriptures, and explain why your scriptures should trump everyone else's secular freedoms. If you claim yours is not a religious argument, then provide a secular argument against abortion.
2) As Dude asked: Where DO you "draw the line"? Why?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/23/2006 13:31:55 |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 13:33:52 [Permalink]
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Dude:
quote:
Actually, abortion wasn't considered a bad thing in medieval times. Or at any point in history prior to the rise of these christian fundies. The methods were not as sofisticated as what we have available now, but a sturdy dose of the right herb....
People used to leave infants out to die from exposure, as accepted practice, if they had deformities (or, in some cases, they were the wrong sex).
People like verso are nothing more than dupes. They are led around by their easily manipulated emotional state, and used as nothing more than a political tool.
The real battle, fully known by their manipulators, is over things much more important than life or death. It is about power, control, and who gets that power and control.
The entire "pro-life" movement is nothing but a screen for those who want to impose their narrowminded worldview on other people.
Your post is strangely void of any objective data. And you seem to know more about me than I know about myself!
Wow!
Valiant:
quote:
And a flag is called on the play!
Misuse of statistics! 15 yards.
Herein lies the serious problem with your post.
The average life expectancy rate is based on live births only. Abortions (elective and spontaneous) are not included in that number which by volume would drastically reduce such a number.
Ahh yes, a good, very sad point. The average life expectancy is much lower, because we've murdered so many children. |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 13:36:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
1) Be open and honest this time. Is or is not your position a religious one? If so, support it by citing chapter and verse from your scriptures, and explain why your scriptures should trump everyone else's secular freedoms. If you claim yours is not a religious argument, then provide a secular argument against abortion.
2) As Dude asked: Where DO you "draw the line"? Why?
1. This time? Was there a previous time? ANYway, yes, I do regard human life as sacred, and that is heavily influenced by my Christian beliefs. However, my position is also perfectly logical.
2. Please read the whole thread. I don't have time to repost previous statements. |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 13:39:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Verso said:
quote:
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quote:Do you draw the line at when there is detectable heartbeat and brain activity? Just curious...
Nope.
Go to Top of Page
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So that was just another straw man.
You're very trigger happy on the straw-man callout!
My point was - quickening is not a good definition of when life starts. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 13:49:50 [Permalink]
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Verso "replied": quote:
1) Be open and honest this time. Is or is not your position a religious one? If so, support it by citing chapter and verse from your scriptures, and explain why your scriptures should trump everyone else's secular freedoms. If you claim yours is not a religious argument, then provide a secular argument against abortion.
2) As Dude asked: Where DO you "draw the line"? Why?
1. This time? Was there a previous time? ANYway, yes, I do regard human life as sacred, and that is heavily influenced by my Christian beliefs. However, my position is also perfectly logical.
2. Please read the whole thread. I don't have time to repost previous statements.
1) You have given us neither chapter and verse from your scripture to show where your anti-abortion religious belief comes from, nor an iota of secular logic.
Zero points.
2) If you pinned yourself down on the stage where abortion should become illegal, I fail to find it in your hateful ravings. Please find and quote it. All I've seen is an equation of all abortion to child murder, a classic straw man "argument".
Zero points again, unless and until we see an answer.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 13:52:59 [Permalink]
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Verso said: quote:
You're very trigger happy on the straw-man callout!
Of course; I'm a skeptic. Straw man "arguments" are very common from people who have no real argument's to support their prejudices. I'll stop calling you on them when you stop using them.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/23/2006 13:54:35 |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 13:57:33 [Permalink]
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Sigh.
Half:
quote:
1) You have given us neither chapter and verse from your scripture to show where your anti-abortion religious belief comes from, nor an iota of secular logic.
Zero points.
2) If you pinned yourself down on the stage where abortion should become illegal, I fail to find it in your hateful ravings. Please find and quote it. All I've seen is an equation of all abortion to child murder, a classic straw man "argument".
Zero points again, unless and until we see an answer.
My hateful ravings? Huh? Who do I hate? I sure don't hate YOU. Chill out!
I'm not arguing this from a religious standpoint, so why would I owe you verses? I'm arguing from logic.
Since you can't find it, I will repost, just for you:
quote:
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 12:49:46
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quote:
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The anti-abortionists use the "where do you draw the line" argument only for obfuscation. In fact, they and the laws they sponsor actually "draw the line" at "protecting" an unimplanted single-cell fertilized ovum. That definition is what freedom of choice people are actually fighting against in the US.
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Are you joking? For obfuscation?
Where we draw the line is THEE matter.
The only non-arbitrary place to draw the line is at conception.
The egg is not a human - it has no human potential on it's own. The sperm is not a human - it has no human potential on it's own. But once they come together, that "zygote," "fetus" or whatever else you want to call it - has a life expectancy of about 80 years - it is a human life.
And even if it's too small to see, even if it's fingers and toes aren't fully formed - even if it isn't aware of itself yet, it is a human life. And innocent human.
And abortion is murdering that human.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 14:01:52 [Permalink]
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Verso said:
quote:
The only non-arbitrary place to draw the line is at conception.
Based on what?
Surely you are aware that a significant number of fertilized eggs never come to term from natural causes? From a failure to implant to a variety of miscarriages.
Abortion, by your definition of conception being the beginning of life, is part of the natural order of things, and your god (becuase he created humans) is the biggest abortionist of all time.
There is no non-arbitrary place to draw the line verso.
quote:
ANYway, yes, I do regard human life as sacred, and that is heavily influenced by my Christian beliefs. However, my position is also perfectly logical.
You clearly don't have a grasp on those basic logic skills then.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 14:07:34 [Permalink]
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Ok.. wow.
I'm going to repost this again. A little bit bigger.
The only non-arbitrary place to draw the line is at conception.
The egg is not a human - it has no human potential on it's own. The sperm is not a human - it has no human potential on it's own. But once they come together, that "zygote," "fetus" or whatever else you want to call it - has a life expectancy of about 80 years - it is a human life.
quote:
Surely you are aware that a significant number of fertilized eggs never come to term from natural causes? From a failure to implant to a variety of miscarriages.
Yes, and people die of heart attacks. What does that have to do with anything? |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 14:09:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
Dude:
quote:
Actually, abortion wasn't considered a bad thing in medieval times. Or at any point in history prior to the rise of these christian fundies. The methods were not as sofisticated as what we have available now, but a sturdy dose of the right herb....
People used to leave infants out to die from exposure, as accepted practice, if they had deformities (or, in some cases, they were the wrong sex).
People like verso are nothing more than dupes. They are led around by their easily manipulated emotional state, and used as nothing more than a political tool.
The real battle, fully known by their manipulators, is over things much more important than life or death. It is about power, control, and who gets that power and control.
The entire "pro-life" movement is nothing but a screen for those who want to impose their narrowminded worldview on other people.
Your post is strangely void of any objective data. And you seem to know more about me than I know about myself!
Wow!
Valiant:
quote:
And a flag is called on the play!
Misuse of statistics! 15 yards.
Herein lies the serious problem with your post.
The average life expectancy rate is based on live births only. Abortions (elective and spontaneous) are not included in that number which by volume would drastically reduce such a number.
Ahh yes, a good, very sad point. The average life expectancy is much lower, because we've murdered so many children.
And another flag on the play!
Assumption that human indiced abortions terminate more pregancies than elective abortions. 10 yards.
Spontaneous abortions account for most abortions out there. The common term for a spontaneous abortion is "loosing the baby" or "miscarriage".
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 02/23/2006 14:10:48 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 14:10:20 [Permalink]
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What would I do if I came upon someone about to shoot a child?
Well, I'm a simple man with simple reactions; I'd most likely slip out the S&W Airweight and blow his sternum clear back through his fucking spine, and call it a job well done. I don't see the sense nor the point of the question.
verso, if you'd been where I have been, seen what I have seen, and indeed, done what I have done, you'd realize that life, human or otherwise, is the most expendable commodity on the planet. The only choice to make is: which lives?
Think about that.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 14:32:29 [Permalink]
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Filthy:
quote:
What would I do if I came upon someone about to shoot a child?
Well, I'm a simple man with simple reactions; I'd most likely slip out the S&W Airweight and blow his sternum clear back through his fucking spine, and call it a job well done. I don't see the sense nor the point of the question.
verso, if you'd been where I have been, seen what I have seen, and indeed, done what I have done, you'd realize that life, human or otherwise, is the most expendable commodity on the planet. The only choice to make is: which lives?
Think about that.
Thank you for a composed post. It's refreshing.
The point of the question is - what right do you have to protect the child? If the person with the gun doesn't define life the same way you do, than you are simply forcing YOUR belief down his throat by stopping him. To me, standing by and letting abortion happen is the same as walking away from that situation.
quote:
...you'd realize that life, human or otherwise, is the most expendable commodity on the planet. The only choice to make is: which lives?
I'm not quite following you here. |
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