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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2006 : 12:41:33 [Permalink]
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ktesibios wrote: quote:
that article about sexual abuse among the Amish reminded me of the recent pedophilia scandal on Pitcairn's Island. The common factor seems to be the properties of small communities isolated from a larger society.
What really upset me the most on a political/social level was not that this sort of shit happens among the Amish, but that outside authorities did very little to stop it. I really don't have a problem with little isolated religious communities, in fact I sort of like them because it does keep them from trying to push their insane philosophy into mainstream political legislation. But they should not be more respected or get any kind of special rights or treatment just because they are religious. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 03/05/2006 12:42:32 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 13:40:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ktesibios
You know, Filthy, that article about sexual abuse among the Amish reminded me of the recent pedophilia scandal on Pitcairn's Island. The common factor seems to be the properties of small communities isolated from a larger society.
Remember what Holmes said in "The Copper Beeches":
quote:
"They always fill me with a certain horror. It is my belief,
Watson, founded upon my experience, that the lowest and vilest
alleys in London do not present a more dreadful record of sin
than does the smiling and beautiful countryside."
"You horrify me!"
"But the reason is very obvious. The pressure of public
opinion can do in the town what the law cannot accomplish.
There is no lane so vile that the scream of a tortured child, or the
thud of a drunkard's blow, does not beget sympathy and indigna-
tion among the neighbours, and then the whole machinery of
justice is ever so close that a word of complaint can set it going,
and there is but a step between the crime and the dock. But look
at these lonely houses, each in its own fields, filled for the most
part with poor ignorant folk who know little of the law. Think of
the deeds of hellish cruelty, the hidden wickedness which may
go on, year in, year out, in such places, and none the wiser."
Yes, but it's not just the isolated communities, would that it were. These things happen even in the middle of the largest societies. It is found in many cults, the late David Koresh's version of the Branch Davidian, for example. And esoteric factions within cults as well. Monasteries and cloisters have always been suspect of deviant behavior, properly or not. I am reminded of the nun who was crucified in Romania a year of so back, and died of it. As I recall, the priest heading it claimed that his actions toward the nun were proper, and the population of that monastery simply went along with it, if not approved of it.
And, so as not to be accused of picking on just the Catholics, too often we read of fatal, home brewed exorcisms of "demon possessed" children performed by dingbat, Protestant leaders of small, local congregations, usually urban.
The problem is much bigger than what the Amish, et al., represent. It exists at all levels, in all faiths, and, as it is someone's religion, the authorities are reluctant to deal effectively with it least they be accused of religious prejudice.
A cult is a cult no matter it's size, prestige, and the beliefs of it's followers. quote:
Speaking of the Church Militant, how many of you know that the Inquisition still exists, and what its official name is? And do you know who headed it, until recently?
Indeed I do, although I've forgotten the current name of it. Until recently, it was headed by the current ass on the Pope's throne.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 14:10:41 [Permalink]
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Actually, Filthy, those examples you just gave strike me as examples of communities effectively isolated from anything outside themselves.
It isn't necessary to be out in the middle of the Pacific to promote the effects Holmes was on about; cults do an effective job of it by a determined rejection of all thought or influence from outside the cult- in fact, one of the characteristics of a cult is that it encourages members to cut off contact with friends and family who are not cult members.
You can create those "lonely houses" in the middle of a bustling city by applying the right psychological techmiques.
And, marfknox, I agree with you that the prostrate attitude of civil authority is repellent. I'm astonished that, for example, that dentist hasn't been haled before the state board which oversees the practice of dentistry and had his license revoked, at the very least.
BTW, Filthy, while I'm not exactly a true crime buff, I did read Schecter's Deranged a few years ago, and scrolling down and finding myself looking Albert Fish in the face gave me rather a turn. I think I liked your "painting of an attractive blonde with one booby hanging out" phase better. |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 14:24:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ktesibios
Actually, Filthy, those examples you just gave strike me as examples of communities effectively isolated from anything outside themselves.
It isn't necessary to be out in the middle of the Pacific to promote the effects Holmes was on about; cults do an effective job of it by a determined rejection of all thought or influence from outside the cult- in fact, one of the characteristics of a cult is that it encourages members to cut off contact with friends and family who are not cult members.
You can create those "lonely houses" in the middle of a bustling city by applying the right psychological techmiques.
And, marfknox, I agree with you that the prostrate attitude of civil authority is repellent. I'm astonished that, for example, that dentist hasn't been haled before the state board which oversees the practice of dentistry and had his license revoked, at the very least.
BTW, Filthy, while I'm not exactly a true crime buff, I did read Schecter's Deranged a few years ago, and scrolling down and finding myself looking Albert Fish in the face gave me rather a turn. I think I liked your "painting of an attractive blonde with one booby hanging out" phase better.
Pretty much what I was trying to say. We tend to isolate ourselves with others of like mind, for good or ill. Too often, the group deviates into practices that are not acceptable to the general public, in all of their groupings. And if religion is involved, it is very touchy to chastise, or even investigate them.
Heh, we'll get back to medieval jailbait in due course..... 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 15:17:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Pretty much what I was trying to say. We tend to isolate ourselves with others of like mind, for good or ill. Too often, the group deviates into practices that are not acceptable to the general public, in all of their groupings. And if religion is involved, it is very touchy to chastise, or even investigate them.
Heh, we'll get back to medieval jailbait in due course.....
Then it is a good thing I am such unque individual that I haven't found anyone of my kind, I would hate to think what an isolated group of me would be like, much less far into group think again.
*shuder* |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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trogdor
Skeptic Friend
198 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 15:52:07 [Permalink]
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I think I could make good money setting up a 24 hour porn/contraceptive superstore just outside this town.
If the 65 foot cross is the largest in the US, what's the largest in the world? |
all eyes were on Ford Prefect. some of them were on stalks.
-Douglas Adams |
| Edited by - trogdor on 03/05/2006 17:44:50 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 17:58:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by trogdor
I think I could make good money setting up a 24 hour porn/contraceptive superstore just outside this town.
If the 65 foot cross is the largest in the US, what's the largest in the world?
I used to know that one, I think, but I've forgotten. Could it be on a mountain in Brazil?
Here is the most interesting one:
It has a rather haunting beauty, doesn't it?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 18:06:25 [Permalink]
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| A crucifix in a Bloody Mary? |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 18:18:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
No more Dominos Pizza for me! ...
I swore off Dominos when I learned 15 years ago for every pizza they gave $1.oo to the prolife movement. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 18:20:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Paulos23
Not making this one up. As a recovering Catholic I am staying away from that town.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/02/catholic.town.ap/index.html
Does anyone know if this is consitutional?
It's only constitutional as a private community. They would not be able to have public streets, utilities, nor qualify for any federal monies for schools, etc. unless they played by the rules every other town plays by.
Except I'm not sure how the Amish and Quakers set up their towns so there must be a way to do it. In the polygamy communities in Utah they flaunt the law but they don't have big cities or anything like that. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 03/05/2006 18:29:42 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 18:23:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ktesibios
You know, Filthy, that article about sexual abuse among the Amish reminded me of the recent pedophilia scandal on Pitcairn's Island. The common factor seems to be the properties of small communities isolated from a larger society.....
Right, like the little itty bitty isolated Catholic Church clergy. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 18:25:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Randy
A crucifix in a Bloody Mary?
It's in piss. Don't you read the news?
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 19:13:12 [Permalink]
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beskeptical wrote: quote:
Except I'm not sure how the Amish and Quakers set up their towns so there must be a way to do it.
Do Quakers have their own communities, or did you mean Mennonites? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 19:31:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by Randy
A crucifix in a Bloody Mary?
It's in piss. Don't you read the news?
That's the infamous Piss Christ, a photo of a crucifix in a container of urine mixed with blood. It caused something of a stir when it was exhibited at an art show a couple of decades or so ago.
Stir...? It damned near caused a nation-wide riot! Jesse Helms almost had a stroke over it. As I recall, Maplethorp's homo-erotic photography was featured as well, which didn't do much for Jesse' blood pressure, either. He squealed about the Endowment for the Arts like a stuck pig for months afterward.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 20:01:02 [Permalink]
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filthy wrotequote:
Stir...? It damned near caused a nation-wide riot! Jesse Helms almost had a stroke over it. As I recall, Maplethorp's homo-erotic photography was featured as well, which didn't do much for Jesse' blood pressure, either. He squealed about the Endowment for the Arts like a stuck pig for months afterward.
Yeah, nevermind that Mapplethorp originally recieved grants for his photos of flowers and tasteful nudes, and nevermind that his X-portfolio was exhibited after his death from the 1980's AIDS epidemic and was shown partially to give representation and exposure through art to gay communities that had been abandoned by the government for the first few years of the epidemic. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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