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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 03/11/2006 : 22:12:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Weren't there some other things involved in that? I don't recall the details beyond a fire.
Well, that's why I linked to the Wikipedia article in my prior post.quote:
But the idea was you and a match in a 1ATM O2 environment. I doubt you'd come to harm.
You're probably right - after all, the solution to the Apollo 1 problem wasn't just a 60/40 oxygen/nitrogen mix, but a lowering of the pressure by a whole 9 kPa (still above 1 atmosphere, but not by as much), and a replacement of all flamable materials with self-extinguishing stuff. Of course, a match isn't self-extinguishing, but perhaps skin is...? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 22:31:54 [Permalink]
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From the wiki article:
quote:
The fire is believed to have been caused by a spark somewhere in the capsule's 30 miles (50 km) of wiring. Due to the pure oxygen inside the capsule (which was at a pressure of 15 psi or 100 kPa) the fire was quickly out of control. The Apollo 204 Review Board determined that a silver-plated copper wire running through an environmental control unit near the command module pilot's couch had become stripped of its insulation and abraded by repeated opening and closing of an associated access door. This weak point in the wiring also happened to pass near a junction in a ethylene glycol / water cooling line, which had developed a leak. The electrolysis of ethylene glycol solution with the anode made of silver resulted in a violent exothermic reaction that ignited the ethylene glycol mixture, which in turn was able to burn in the atmosphere of pure pressurized oxygen
Now, if you rubbed yourself down in baby oil and vasoline, and struck a match in a pure O2 environment.... you might be in trouble.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2006 : 03:08:10 [Permalink]
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Rub yourself down with motor oil and you won't need a match. But all thought would have fled at birth from someone stupid enough to perform that trick, so the point is moot. quote:
Yeah, I've gone out on a limb, but there's a reason life forms are different from non animated matter and natural selection/evolution isn't enough to explain it. All I have to do is look within and see that I am one and my corpse is a collection...hence evolves the idea of a spirit or soul. To me it is silly to think a composite has an 'individual' identity (individual means in-dividual). Has NOTHING to do with religion.
Ok, ok... I think I'm finally getting a toe-hold on this....
You are positing a "reason for life" of sorts, yes? I don't suppose that needs religion, although one pretty much follows the other in most cases.
I don't buy it. Apart from individual feelings and emotions, which we all feel, the existence of a spiritual -- call it "plane" for lack of a better word -- has yet to be proven. Nor will it ever be simply because science deals only with the corpus and not the spiritus, as it were. And the reason being for that is that one can tested and the other cannot.
I think that the Theory of Evolution alone is perfectly adequate to explain individual diversity within a species. Indeed, as individuals become more diverse, the genetic make up of their populations might, and probably will, change and this is a factor in kicking off speciation. The eastern and western diamondback rattlesnakes (C. adamanteus and C. atrox) look exactly alike in every way, to all but experienced herpetologists, but they are very different in many ways including temperment. And the tiny and rather lovely rock rattlesnake (C. lepidus) is nothing like either but yet is a pea from that same pod.
Crotalus adamanteus
Crotalus atrox (Photo taken at night. This snake went on to bite an aquaintance of mine when he attempted to remove it from the road.)
Crotalus lepidus klaberi
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 03/12/2006 05:29:12 |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2006 : 05:47:32 [Permalink]
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| Those are gorgeous! Especially the last one. Fantastic little things, aren't they? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2006 : 05:53:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by THoR
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
Life was no chemical accident.
Prove it.
Prove it was.
I can't prove it was. Neither can you prove it wasn't. See the point? We'll be running in circles forever. We've strong clues pointing towards the hypothesis that life was a chemical accident, though; what clues are there that point towards life not being a chemical accident? And if it wasn't, what was it, then? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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nescafe
New Member
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2006 : 07:01:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Dave_W said:
quote:
15 psi (the Apollo 1 O2 pressure) is only 1.325% more more than one atmosphere.
Weren't there some other things involved in that? I don't recall the details beyond a fire.
But the idea was you and a match in a 1ATM O2 environment. I doubt you'd come to harm.
I was thinking about something along the lines of Apollo 1 when I wrote that. If STP is not high enough, though, we can stipulate that the pressure needs to be 2atm or so. That should be enough (especially once they become saturated) for a human to burn. |
Insert witty saying here. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2006 : 08:23:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Those are gorgeous! Especially the last one. Fantastic little things, aren't they?
They are indeed. I have had all three species spend time in my madhouse, and the leps are ever a favorite. 20 inches is a big one and they are one of the world's very few viperids that feed on arthropods, notably centipedes, scorpions, and large spiders, as adults. Their venom is in small supply, but quite hot and fairly high in neurotoxins. A bite from one is extraordinary painful, but as far as I know, non-lethal to an adult human.
Anyone who does not love rattlesnakes has no SOUL!! 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2006 : 12:21:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Rub yourself down with motor oil and you won't need a match. But all thought would have fled at birth from someone stupid enough to perform that trick, so the point is moot. quote:
Yeah, I've gone out on a limb, but there's a reason life forms are different from non animated matter and natural selection/evolution isn't enough to explain it. All I have to do is look within and see that I am one and my corpse is a collection...hence evolves the idea of a spirit or soul. To me it is silly to think a composite has an 'individual' identity (individual means in-dividual). Has NOTHING to do with religion.
Ok, ok... I think I'm finally getting a toe-hold on this....
You are positing a "reason for life" of sorts, yes? I don't suppose that needs religion, although one pretty much follows the other in most cases.
I don't buy it. Apart from individual feelings and emotions, which we all feel, the existence of a spiritual -- call it "plane" for lack of a better word -- has yet to be proven. Nor will it ever be simply because science deals only with the corpus and not the spiritus, as it were. And the reason being for that is that one can tested and the other cannot.
Before it dawned on me that to claim a composite can, by some esoteric power, have a single identity invokes the supernatural, I, too, assumed my consciousness was the result of a horde of energized particulate matter. It is not comforting to presume your essence has always and will eternally continue to exist (when sol supernova's armagedden oudda here). It was not by preference that I arrived at this conclusion.
quote:
I think that the Theory of Evolution alone is perfectly adequate to explain individual diversity within a species. Indeed, as individuals become more diverse, the genetic make up of their populations might, and probably will, change and this is a factor in kicking off speciation. The eastern and western diamondback rattlesnakes (C. adamanteus and C. atrox) look exactly alike in every way, to all but experienced herpetologists, but they are very different in many ways including temperment. And the tiny and rather lovely rock rattlesnake (C. lepidus) is nothing like either but yet is a pea from that same pod.
Evolution is fine, except at the very beginning. Why life at all? Something was responsible for combining the elements of the planet into animated format. Something that liked the fluidity of water. Something that sought the energy stored in hydrocarbons. Something different from the gasses and solids we consider inanimate material.
PS: If you like snakes, you'd LOVE South Texas |
I would procrastinate but I never seem to get around to it. |
| Edited by - THoR on 03/12/2006 12:22:52 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2006 : 13:15:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by THoR
Evolution is fine, except at the very beginning. Why life at all? Something was responsible for combining the elements of the planet into animated format. Something that liked the fluidity of water. Something that sought the energy stored in hydrocarbons. Something different from the gasses and solids we consider inanimate material.
That's just a bunch of anthropomorphising. The laws of physics are constant throughout time. The laws of chemistry hasn't changed the last 10+ billion years. Maybe the laws, as they are, just favour life given the right circumstances. On molecular scale, the combination of elements may be random. Given the mass of the elements present on Earth 4 billion years ago, life may be the result of emergent properties. If such is the case, then life was not an accident. This also leads to the conclusion that elsewhere in the galaxy is quite probable. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2006 : 13:42:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Evolution is fine, except at the very beginning. Why life at all? Something was responsible for combining the elements of the planet into animated format. Something that liked the fluidity of water. Something that sought the energy stored in hydrocarbons. Something different from the gasses and solids we consider inanimate material.
PS: If you like snakes, you'd LOVE South Texas
Why indeed? Anyone's guess about a creator is as good as anyone else's, and none of them can be confirmed. And that, of course, brings up another question:
Why does life have to have a purpose beyond that of sustaining it's own existence, and by extension, a genesis beyond that of the casual combining of the necessary elements?
The atrox pictured is from S. TX and, at last report, is currently in a private collection in VA. I was offered it if I'd pay the shipping, but had no room. The photo really doesn't do it justice; it's one of the lighter phases and a very handsome serpent.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2006 : 14:55:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by THoR:
It is not comforting to presume your essence has always and will eternally continue to exist (when sol supernova's armagedden oudda here).
Our sun is not predicted to supernova. 
And I don't see any evidence that anyone's "essence" (whatever that is) will continue to exist after bodily death. Because as a skeptic (not a true believer) I'd like to see some evidence supporting that claim. With billions of "essences" existing eternally, I would think there would be some evidence of their existence. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2006 : 16:28:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
It is not comforting to presume your essence has always and will eternally continue to exist...
Wouldn't that violate the second law of thermodynamics? |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2006 : 16:37:11 [Permalink]
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filthy, thats a nice pic of Crotalus lepidus klaberi
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I hadn't seen a pic of one of those before.... the color is truly amazing. Beautiful animal.
nescafe said:
quote:
I was thinking about something along the lines of Apollo 1 when I wrote that. If STP is not high enough, though, we can stipulate that the pressure needs to be 2atm or so. That should be enough (especially once they become saturated) for a human to burn.
At 2ATM of pure O2, you are gonna be poisoned by the O2. It is neurotoxic to humans at a pp of 2.0 ATM or higher. No need for a match.
But yes, when you start to pressurize O2 beyone 1ATM, you can get some materials to combust rapidly without any open fire to help.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2006 : 18:32:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Evolution is fine, except at the very beginning. Why life at all? Something was responsible for combining the elements of the planet into animated format. Something that liked the fluidity of water. Something that sought the energy stored in hydrocarbons. Something different from the gasses and solids we consider inanimate material.
PS: If you like snakes, you'd LOVE South Texas
Why indeed? Anyone's guess about a creator is as good as anyone else's, and none of them can be confirmed.
Creator? Don't need no steeenkin' Creator.
Most eggheads think fundamental particles are structureless, homogeneous critters - the essence of simplicity. And they seem to be entranced by the study of material particulates - totally IGNORING ethereal construction (what is SPACE made of?). If elemental particles were structureless and homogeneous, the Universe would be a static and timeless environment. Life forms may well be ethereal fundamental elements - which react to material particles to form animated 'beings'...plankton, petunias, pollywogs, pigs and people among othersquote:
And that, of course, brings up another question: Why does life have to have a purpose beyond that of sustaining it's own existence, and by extension, a genesis beyond that of the casual combining of the necessary elements?
Why, indeed. Actually the meaning of life is simple "NOT DEAD".quote:
The atrox pictured is from S. TX and, at last report, is currently in a private collection in VA. I was offered it if I'd pay the shipping, but had no room. The photo really doesn't do it justice; it's one of the lighter phases and a very handsome serpent.
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I would procrastinate but I never seem to get around to it. |
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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2006 : 18:39:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
Evolution is fine, except at the very beginning. Why life at all? Something was responsible for combining the elements of the planet into animated format. Something that liked the fluidity of water. Something that sought the energy stored in hydrocarbons. Something different from the gasses and solids we consider inanimate material.
That's just a bunch of anthropomorphising. The laws of physics are constant throughout time. The laws of chemistry hasn't changed the last 10+ billion years. Maybe the laws, as they are, just favour life given the right circumstances. On molecular scale, the combination of elements may be random. Given the mass of the elements present on Earth 4 billion years ago, life may be the result of emergent properties. If such is the case, then life was not an accident. This also leads to the conclusion that elsewhere in the galaxy is quite probable.
What is your body composed of? Most consider us to be carbon based, but actually by weight, we are water based. Still more interesting is that by volume our corpses are predominately SPACE. Might there be something unseen mixed in - something ethereal. Not in a different plane, not something spiritual, something completely physical - just not material (having the property of mass).
Until mankind can figure himself out - we certainly can't claim that there's intelligent life on THIS planet. |
I would procrastinate but I never seem to get around to it. |
| Edited by - THoR on 03/12/2006 18:40:17 |
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