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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 03/16/2006 : 08:48:09 [Permalink]
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bill said:
quote:
That is for sure your freewill descision, but like I reminded marf, do not get to comfortable in this existence...
If there is an afterlife you won't be spending it in "paradise" bill. You are far to arrogant and pridefull.
Your decision to start preaching and making veiled threats to people on this board just illustrates what a huge asshole you really are.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 08:50:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
(bill) You can talk about your "richness" all you want. Meanwhile Siberia is contemplating suicide and does not really seem to be enjoying this whole "richness of the human experience" that you speak of...
First of all, by “richness” I hardly meant “sunshine and roses all the time”. Hardship and pain is a huge part of life. Sometimes life is unbearable for someone, and people do decide to take their own lives. To use an example of someone outside this forum, when I worked at a coffee house there was this regular who was always fun-loving. He'd come in for mochachinnos about twice a day, tip really well, and chat with clerks and other regulars. He had a naturalistic worldview, and pretty much lived like a moderate hedonist (finding his personal meaning in life from material pleasures.) Then one day, he didn't show up, and we found out he had committed suicide. We closed the whole store down so everyone could go to his funeral. There they read his suicide note. It said in strong words how this decision was his and his alone, and briefly talked of the sever bipolar disordered he had suffered from his entire life. Apparently all that fun-loving side we saw at the coffee house was matched by pangs of deep depression at home. And he said that as he got older, it was getting worse, that he'd struggled with the worsening symptoms for over a year (including using psych meds) and finally decided to just end things before they get even worse. I knew the guy, and I respect his decision. It was his to make, and it wasn't a rash decision. And all of his suffering doesn't negate all the joy he also experienced in his life. As far as I'm concerned, you people who say life has no meaning unless we live forever under the gaze of some variation on Zeus are seriously not paying attention.
And second of all, where do you get off taking advantage of Siberia's sharing of a personal story? What, you couldn't just come up with a neutral example from outside the personal sharing of people on this forum? I was going to refrain from this kind of criticism of people, but you've really crossed the line now having twisted what Filthy said about gay couples raising kids, what I said about my dad, and now this. You obvious only understand what people write within the narrow parameters of your own foundationless worldview.
quote:
(bill) Yet you are the one who will terminate any "potential" "parasitic" human life growing inside you simply so you won't be inconvenienced. So rather then take responsibility you eliminate it.
(my emphasis) You ever had tapeworm, Bill?
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(bill) You have freewill. But I would not get comfortable in my existence if I were you.
What's that? A threat I hear? Could it be a Christian eluding to the spector of hell? ‘Cause that's what your faith is based on, Bill: fear. quote:
"We are like butterflies who flutter for a day and think it's forever" -Carl Sagan
I agree wholeheartedly with Carl here, in the scope of eternity, our lives are but a puff of smoke.
Boy did you miss his point.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 09:08:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
(bill) She is the one who said that she contemplates suicide. I take that very seriously and my only mission is to give her hope where she currently has no hope. If she chooses to dismiss my efforts then there is nothing left that I can do. But I will not sit back and say nothing when one has basically said they have lost all hope or are hanging on with very little hope.
I rather suspect that 'most everybody comtemplates suicide at one time or another. I certainly have, but I'm still here.
An intangable hope of an afterlife isn't really much to go with. Far better to make the very best that you can of your life and let death, a process as natural and normal as living, take care of itself.
So am I... I think.
And keep in mind, I contemplated suicide not because I hurt oh-so-much (to be honest, I could care less. I'm used to pain, fever, mental strain, whatever, I won't quit that easily), but because I see I make others hurt oh so much for my sake. My existence doesn't matter to me nearly as much as their happiness.
And no, I have no hope of eternal life. That's why I'm still alive.
quote:
And keep in mind, I contemplated suicide not because I hurt oh-so-much (to be honest, I could care less. I'm used to pain, fever, mental strain, whatever, I won't quit that easily), but because I see I make others hurt oh so much for my sake.
(bill) So on one hand you think about suicide because of the pain you feel your existence, in it's current state, hurts mother, while on the other you dismiss suicide as an option because that would hurt your mother as well? I can see where you might feel trapped in a catch 22. You believe if you live you cause your mother pain and if you die you cause your mother pain. Hmm. I can see the dilemma you have yourself in and how it might not be easy to cope with..
quote:
My existence doesn't matter to me nearly as much as their happiness.
(bill) But again, in a naturalistic universe, their happiness is ultimately rendered meaningless as one day they will die and all their life experiences and all their memory of this existence will cease to exsist. So worrying about their happiness in this life, while a noble thing to do, ends in only a temporary fix as their happiness is ultimately left meaningless in the naturalistic universe anyway.
quote:
And no, I have no hope of eternal life. That's why I'm still alive.
(bill) Your freewill choice which you are free to make, but let me remind not to get to comfortable in this existence as....
"We are like butterflies who flutter for a day and think it's forever" -Carl Sagan
I agree wholeheartedly with Carl here, in the scope of eternity, our lives are but a puff of smoke.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 09:10:45 [Permalink]
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Why must a life have "meaning" beyond itself? That has never sense to me. Far better to make the life you have mean something than to worry about eternity that you can never have any impact upon.
The only and best afterlife that we can anticipate is the memories of those who knew us.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 09:17:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
bill said:
quote:
That is for sure your freewill descision, but like I reminded marf, do not get to comfortable in this existence...
If there is an afterlife you won't be spending it in "paradise" bill. You are far to arrogant and pridefull.
Your decision to start preaching and making veiled threats to people on this board just illustrates what a huge asshole you really are.
That is called a suggestion dude. Meet me out back after work and then I am going to kick your a$$, now that is a threat. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 09:25:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Why must a life have "meaning" beyond itself? That has never sense to me. Far better to make the life you have mean something than to worry about eternity that you can never have any impact upon.
The only and best afterlife that we can anticipate is the memories of those who knew us.
quote:
The only and best afterlife that we can anticipate is the memories of those who knew us.
But of course as soon as those who knew you die then all the memories of you that they had cease to exisist as well. In one generation it would be as if you had never existed. So not even a legacy can escape the meaninglessness and eventual annhilation of the naturialistic universe.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 10:01:05 [Permalink]
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For me, finding meaning for my life does not depend on if any one remembers me.
How self absorbed and shallow can someone be?
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 10:46:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
It might be temporarily meaningful, to you, but in 70 years from now when your complete existence and your complete ID have been annihilated, then all of your life experiences end in a meaningless non-existence.
So, you have knowledge that my complete existence will be annihilated? Do tell.quote:
And so therefore, ultimately, your existence is rendered meaningless anyway, even if you subscribe meaning to it while it exists. No matter how much you try and convince yourself that it is not.
No, I plan for my life to have had meaning long after I'm dead.quote:
How wrong you are. The state in which you will spend your eternal existence is determined in this life, giving this life an infinite and eternal worth for me, rather then a meaningless sense of worth that comes from the naturalistic universe.
Well, since you claim that God is a 50/50 shot ('cause I certainly never claimed that), then you're really rolling the dice, aren't you?quote:
It gives me more time to share my eternal hope with those who have lost all hope. Some listen and some don't. Money can not buy you the high you get when you can give one hope who previously had no hope. Eternal hope is the message that can impact all. Young or old, rich or poor, black or white.
Except that false hopes are worse than no hope at all. Why lift the hopeless up, only so that they'll fall farther? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 10:51:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
But of course as soon as those who knew you die then all the memories of you that they had cease to exisist as well. In one generation it would be as if you had never existed. So not even a legacy can escape the meaninglessness and eventual annhilation of the naturialistic universe.
Yeah, that's why nobody knows anything about Socrates, or Newton, or Pasteur, or Einstein, or even Jesus. Nobody remembers them, it's as if they never existed. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 11:52:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
So on one hand you think about suicide because of the pain you feel your existence, in it's current state, hurts mother, while on the other you dismiss suicide as an option because that would hurt your mother as well? I can see where you might feel trapped in a catch 22. You believe if you live you cause your mother pain and if you die you cause your mother pain. Hmm. I can see the dilemma you have yourself in and how it might not be easy to cope with..
It isn't. But I don't give a damn. I know my death by suicide - being my mother extremely religious - would feel worse to her than the fact I already ruined her life. I'm not willing to ruin it further, but had she ever asked me to, I would. As happily as, what was his name, Abraham? Who'd kill his son for his imaginary pal? Yeah. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 12:24:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
It might be temporarily meaningful, to you, but in 70 years from now when your complete existence and your complete ID have been annihilated, then all of your life experiences end in a meaningless non-existence.
So, you have knowledge that my complete existence will be annihilated? Do tell.quote:
And so therefore, ultimately, your existence is rendered meaningless anyway, even if you subscribe meaning to it while it exists. No matter how much you try and convince yourself that it is not.
No, I plan for my life to have had meaning long after I'm dead.quote:
How wrong you are. The state in which you will spend your eternal existence is determined in this life, giving this life an infinite and eternal worth for me, rather then a meaningless sense of worth that comes from the naturalistic universe.
Well, since you claim that God is a 50/50 shot ('cause I certainly never claimed that), then you're really rolling the dice, aren't you?quote:
It gives me more time to share my eternal hope with those who have lost all hope. Some listen and some don't. Money can not buy you the high you get when you can give one hope who previously had no hope. Eternal hope is the message that can impact all. Young or old, rich or poor, black or white.
Except that false hopes are worse than no hope at all. Why lift the hopeless up, only so that they'll fall farther?
quote:
So, you have knowledge that my complete existence will be annihilated? Do tell.
(bill) Well your 7000+ posts might still be a record on SFN so that could be your legacy.
quote:
No, I plan for my life to have had meaning long after I'm dead.
(bill) Noted.
quote:
Well, since you claim that God is a 50/50 shot ('cause I certainly never claimed that), then you're really rolling the dice, aren't you?
(bill) OK Dave. I will just forget that you ever told me that "no one can know what came before BB and so then all options are given equal probability." Problem is that you said it.
So of course that would give 50/50 to a god did it vs. no god did it scenario. Who ever god may be is irrelevant to a god or no god debate based on your notion that no one can know so all options are given equal probability..
Yes I understand we are not talking about my personal God, I never said we were. Based off your statement I then concluded that a god did it version of the BB would then carry just as much merit as a no god did it version of the BB based on your notion.
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Except that false hopes are worse than no hope at all.
(bill) Of course it is all your speculation that the hope is false to begin with.
quote:
Why lift the hopeless up, only so that they'll fall farther?
(bill) How could they fall farther? Hopeless means they have no hope. I offered the hope of eternal life. Once you die if there is no eternal life and all we have is the naturalistic universe then their earthy existence will completely cease to exist and so he/she will never even now there is no eternal life as their very ID has ceased to exist in any shape or form. So there is no person left to fall further.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
But of course as soon as those who knew you die then all the memories of you that they had cease to exisist as well. In one generation it would be as if you had never existed. So not even a legacy can escape the meaninglessness and eventual annhilation of the naturialistic universe.
Yeah, that's why nobody knows anything about Socrates, or Newton, or Pasteur, or Einstein, or even Jesus. Nobody remembers them, it's as if they never existed.
(bill) Hmmm. I see your point. However, I was responding to Filithy's statement of:
quote:
The only and best afterlife that we can anticipate is the memories of those who knew us.
So I was referring to him and the "memories of those who knew him" when I made my statement. Sure if Filthy cures cancer and they make a 5th bust on Mt. Rushmore to honor him, yes, the image of him might transcend his grave, but in 50 years the people looking at his bust will have never known him or have had any memories of him, which was the comment I was referring to.
The people that filthy saved from cancer will still eventually die anyway and will end with no memory of their existence on earth, so they, at the point of death, will lose their existence here on earth and so filithy curing cancer is now lost in the non-existence of their former existence and is rendered meaningless.
Shoot, eventually man kind will go extinct and so we find in the end that even Socrates, Newton, Pasteur, and Einstein all had meaningless existences as well as none of it will even matter one iota at the end of a naturalistic universe.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 12:56:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
So on one hand you think about suicide because of the pain you feel your existence, in it's current state, hurts mother, while on the other you dismiss suicide as an option because that would hurt your mother as well? I can see where you might feel trapped in a catch 22. You believe if you live you cause your mother pain and if you die you cause your mother pain. Hmm. I can see the dilemma you have yourself in and how it might not be easy to cope with..
It isn't. But I don't give a damn. I know my death by suicide - being my mother extremely religious - would feel worse to her than the fact I already ruined her life. I'm not willing to ruin it further, but had she ever asked me to, I would. As happily as, what was his name, Abraham? Who'd kill his son for his imaginary pal? Yeah.
quote:
It isn't.
(bill) While I will never pretend that I can know what your going through, I can see where your situation would be a very difficult one. I admire you for your obvious perseverance in the face of a very challenging set of circumstances. I commend you as well for your selfless love and concern for your mother, who it appears you care for very much. She is lucky to have a daughter as understanding and as caring as you.
quote:
But I don't give a damn. I know my death by suicide - being my mother extremely religious - would feel worse to her than the fact I already ruined her life.
(bill) Is it your mother or you who feel that you have ruined her life, if you don't mind my asking? I would be surprised that your mother felt that way if she truly was a God fearing women who had a daughter that obviously cares for her so and was willing to put her personal interests aside t make room for her concern for her mothers well being. That is a virtue that many younger people here the states have lost. Not only a love for their parents, but many do not even give them respect. I can only hope that my girls grow to give their mother the love and respect that you have given yours. I commend you for your brave and selfless dedication to your mother.
quote:
I'm not willing to ruin it further, but had she ever asked me to, I would. As happily as, what was his name, Abraham? Who'd kill his son for his imaginary pal? Yeah.
(bill) Yes, father Abraham, I am familiar with the text.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 13:01:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
But of course as soon as those who knew you die then all the memories of you that they had cease to exisist as well. In one generation it would be as if you had never existed. So not even a legacy can escape the meaninglessness and eventual annhilation of the naturialistic universe.
Exactly. And the problem with this is.....?
Of course, as Dave nicely stated, the memories of some live on far longer than others. Which does not make the least difference to those bones that used to be the greatest and the least of of us. Socrates has remained relevant centuries after his sip of hemlock. The bullet in Hitler's head reduced him to no more than a futile curse that will endure as long as history will be read.
Neither will care.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 13:08:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
bill said:
quote:
That is for sure your freewill descision, but like I reminded marf, do not get to comfortable in this existence...
If there is an afterlife you won't be spending it in "paradise" bill. You are far to arrogant and pridefull.
Your decision to start preaching and making veiled threats to people on this board just illustrates what a huge asshole you really are.
I love dudes logic. "If there is an after life, Bill you will find me there as judge, jury and executioner and I will not let you in." |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 13:31:10 [Permalink]
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marfknox, dude, and everyone else who believes personhood does not begin at conception:
Here is my final conclusion and reasoning on the issue.
At conception, a new, unique organism is created. This organism will develop in continuum though birth, adolescence, and adulthood. At no point does something fundamental change about this organism. At adulthood, this organism will be exactly the same organism that was created upon fertilization. Even though its traits have not yet been expressed, the exist as much as they ever will.
At adulthood, this organism has a certain value, assigned for whatever reason. For some it is religious, for some it seems to be an inherent part of human nature to assign value to other humans.
There is no fundamental change in the organism between adulthood and adolescence. There is no fundamental change between adolescence and childhood, or between childhood and infancy - post and pre-birth - all the way down to conception. It is a continuous development.
Therefore, I have no reason to suspect that a fertilized egg is anything but a unique, individual human. As such, I must grant it the same value I will grant it later in development.
What I am seeing on this forum is people going through logical and biological gymnastics to circumvent this simple fact.
For example: Viability. "It cannot be considered a person because it is nonviable."
Do you only have this "human nature empathy" for other people who can survive on their own?
“It is non-sentient" or "not self-aware."
Does this mean people who are in a coma, or even in the deeper cycles of sleep, or temporarily not people?
You can call it a parasite. THAT is loaded rhetoric. How is the fact that an embryo fits the definition of a parasite relevant to anything? Who cares if it is a parasite? Are parasites inherently bad? No, you say that because people have a engrained negative reaction to the thought of a parasite.
More than one of you mentioned that I seem to make an exception to my belief in freedom in the case of a pregnant woman having control over her body. This is absolute crap - of course I believe in limiting another's freedom when that person's actions are encroaching on others' freedom. This is why I believe criminals should be put in jail. You are trying to apply your premise to my logic when you say that. Of course it's not going to make sense. Not the first time I've had to say that.
In closing - I truly believe that abortion is murder. Yes, you can play word games and "it's not murder because it's legal, and murder by definition is illegal." However you say it - abortion is killing a human who is worth every bit as much as you are. Even if the human is severely mentally handicapped.
If it makes you feel better, call it a parasite. Say it's not murder because murder is by definition "illegal." Call it a "clump of tissue." It's microscopic and it doesn't look like a human yet, so it must not be, right?
These discussions have demonstrated one thing perfectly clearly: humans can rationalize anything. H. Humbert's sig says it perfectly:
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
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