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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 03/16/2006 : 13:38:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
marfknox, dude, and everyone else who believes personhood does not begin at conception:
Here is my final conclusion and reasoning on the issue.
In closing - I truly believe that abortion is murder. Yes, you can play word games and "it's not murder because it's legal, and murder by definition is illegal." However you say it - abortion is killing a human who is worth every bit as much as you are. Even if the human is severely mentally handicapped.
Your expression of faith is noted and respected. We respectfully disagree with your religious belief and disagree with allowing it to be written into law.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 13:59:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
marfknox, dude, and everyone else who believes personhood does not begin at conception:
Here is my final conclusion and reasoning on the issue.
At conception, a new, unique organism is created. This organism will develop in continuum though birth, adolescence, and adulthood. At no point does something fundamental change about this organism. At adulthood, this organism will be exactly the same organism that was created upon fertilization. Even though its traits have not yet been expressed, the exist as much as they ever will.
Your assertion that all of a person's traits are determined genetically is noted, and rejected due to overwhelming amounts of counterevidence.
Do you consider monozygotic twins to be a single individual, also? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 14:42:06 [Permalink]
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| Regarding the pain and suffering issues, not everyone with birth defects will have a happy life. In the case of this syndrome, the child can need congenital heart defects, clubfeet, and cryptorchidism surgically treated. You can't lump all disabled fetuses into the same right to life bag. There are many variables. |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 15:39:31 [Permalink]
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Dave:
quote:
Do you consider monozygotic twins to be a single individual, also?
Why would I?
If an individual is created at conception - then later splits - creating two or more new individuals, that doesn't somehow negate the fact that it was an individual before it split, does it?
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 16:36:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
(bill) OK Dave. I will just forget that you ever told me that "no one can know what came before BB and so then all options are given equal probability." Problem is that you said it.
So of course that would give 50/50 to a god did it vs. no god did it scenario. Who ever god may be is irrelevant to a god or no god debate based on your notion that no one can know so all options are given equal probability..
Yes I understand we are not talking about my personal God, I never said we were. Based off your statement I then concluded that a god did it version of the BB would then carry just as much merit as a no god did it version of the BB based on your notion.
So you are claiming that the universe may have been created by a god, or it may not have been created by a god. Since god or no-god covers all the possibilities and since all possibilities are equal there is a 50% chance it was created by a god.
But wait...
The universe may have been expelled from the sphincter of an iguana residing in the bedroom of ten year old Timmy Shmidgley of Akron Ohio. Or it was not expelled from the sphincter of an iguana residing in the bedroom of ten year old Timmy Shmidgley of Akron Ohio. It either was or it wasn't, that covers all possibilities and since all possibilities are equal, there is a 50% chance that the universe was expelled from the sphincter of an iguana residing in the bedroom of ten year old Timmy Shmidgley of Akron Ohio.
So applying your logic, Bill, we have a 50% chance that the universe was created by a god, and a 50% chance that the universe was expelled from the sphincter of an iguana residing in the bedroom of ten year old Timmy Shmidgley of Akron Ohio.
But wait, theres more...
It's possible the universe is nothing more than the dissolving of an Alka Seltzer tablet of a transdimentional bigfoot who's abode uncannily resembles the suburban house on The Dick VanDyke Show. Or the universe is not the dissolving of an Alka Seltzer tablet of a transdimentional bigfoot who's abode uncannily resembles the suburban house on The Dick VanDyke Show. Either it is or it isn't, that covers all the possibilities, and since all possibilities are equal then we have a 50% chance that the universe is nothing more than the dissolving of an Alka Seltzer tablet of a transdimentional bigfoot who's abode uncannily resembles the suburban house on The Dick VanDyke Show.
So we've got a 50% chance that the universe was created by a god, a 50% chance that the universe was expelled from the sphincter of an iguana residing in the bedroom of ten year old Timmy Shmidgley of Akron Ohio, and a 50% chance that the universe is nothing more than the dissolving of an Alka Seltzer tablet of a transdimentional bigfoot who's abode uncannily resembles the suburban house on The Dick VanDyke Show.
But wait, there's more...
Now, Bill, do you see why your claim that a 50% chance for a god created universe is absurd?
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The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 17:50:16 [Permalink]
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Y'know, thinking about it, from a cosmic point of view and all of the possibilities that implies, the odds really don't mean a hell of a lot.
In fact, I'm convinced that Murphy's Law rules the universe: If it can happen, it will and probably already has.
And let's not get back into that crap again. The OP crap, that will never be settled to anyone's satisfaction, is enough.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 18:14:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Y'know, thinking about it, from a cosmic point of view and all of the possibilities that implies, the odds really don't mean a hell of a lot.
In fact, I'm convinced that Murphy's Law rules the universe: If it can happen, it will and probably already has.
And let's not get back into that crap again. The OP crap, that will never be settled to anyone's satisfaction, is enough.
I agree. How can you put odds on what was the cause of the universe? This forum has proven that no one would ever agree. I will cease with the 50/50 reference.
I bet if you called around you might find those odds in Vegas, however... |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 03/17/2006 04:56:41 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2006 : 01:39:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
You can call it a parasite. THAT is loaded rhetoric. How is the fact that an embryo fits the definition of a parasite relevant to anything? Who cares if it is a parasite? Are parasites inherently bad? No, you say that because people have a engrained negative reaction to the thought of a parasite.
The fact that an embryo fits the biological definition of the word parasite is relevant as this regards the wishes and choice of the "host". quote:
In closing - I truly believe that abortion is murder. Yes, you can play word games and "it's not murder because it's legal, and murder by definition is illegal."
You call it murder. THAT is loaded rhetoric.
Its not word games, it is what the word mean. Period.quote:
However you say it - abortion is killing a human who is worth every bit as much as you are.
You are free to assign "worth" as you like.
I can respect that you think and abortion is wrong but equating a fetus with a viable conscious human is in my opinion absurd.quote:
These discussions have demonstrated one thing perfectly clearly: humans can rationalize anything.
Like equating a human with a fetus and giving them the same worth. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2006 : 05:42:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
But of course as soon as those who knew you die then all the memories of you that they had cease to exisist as well. In one generation it would be as if you had never existed. So not even a legacy can escape the meaninglessness and eventual annhilation of the naturialistic universe.
Exactly. And the problem with this is.....?
Of course, as Dave nicely stated, the memories of some live on far longer than others. Which does not make the least difference to those bones that used to be the greatest and the least of of us. Socrates has remained relevant centuries after his sip of hemlock. The bullet in Hitler's head reduced him to no more than a futile curse that will endure as long as history will be read.
Neither will care.
quote:
Exactly. And the problem with this is.....?
(bill) Nothing, if you do not mind a meaningless existence.
quote:
Of course, as Dave nicely stated, the memories of some live on far longer than others. Which does not make the least difference to those bones that used to be the greatest and the least of of us. Socrates has remained relevant centuries after his sip of hemlock. The bullet in Hitler's head reduced him to no more than a futile curse that will endure as long as history will be read.
(bill) In the naturalistic universe it does not matter if your name is still spoken of by some 500 years after the death of your existence. Sure the dust of your bones are still in the ground, but any conscience existence you held in this life has ceased to exist. The conscience existence of all who have passed after you has ceased to exist. All those, who have died after them, their conscience existence of their "human experience" ceased to exist at the point of death. The one's who are alive are the only one's who can have any knowledge of past legacies as those who have died have lost all conscience existence of their life on earth. The problem is those who are alive will die. Eventually we will come to the end of the naturalistic universe and mankind will go extinct. At that time even the lives of the most honored and revered men through out the ages will be rendered meaningless. Once the last man dies there will be no more conscience remembrance of the naturalistic universe anywhere, by anyone. So after 4 billion years the naturalistic universe ends in meaninglessness and mankind goes extinct into a meaningless non-existence of their former meaningless existence.
quote:
Neither will care.
(bill) In the end no one will care because no one will be around to care. No conscience remembrance of the universe anywhere so what is there to care about and who is left to care? All is rendered meaningless in the naturalistic universe.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 03/17/2006 05:44:52 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2006 : 06:45:34 [Permalink]
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We have now, at last, come down to where the cat shat in the parlor.
It is difficult for us to imagine an existence that lacks the unique, irreplaceable 'Me.' We have difficulty accepting that we are all going to die, therefore our -- call it: 'Essence' -- must carry on somewhere, somehow. Therefore, we have always invented these afterlives with no factual basis in nature. It is and will be, until the demise of our species, which will come long before the demise of the universe, the lore that keeps religions going and their adherents believing in whatever merciful or ferocious deity they espouse. It is the curse of sapience...
What is wrong with simply the peace of oblivion, where at last, all things are equal? It seems a lot more likely, and certainly more reasonable, than the fairy stories told by the churchs.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2006 : 07:48:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
We have now, at last, come down to where the cat shat in the parlor.
It is difficult for us to imagine an existence that lacks the unique, irreplaceable 'Me.' We have difficulty accepting that we are all going to die, therefore our -- call it: 'Essence' -- must carry on somewhere, somehow. Therefore, we have always invented these afterlives with no factual basis in nature. It is and will be, until the demise of our species, which will come long before the demise of the universe, the lore that keeps religions going and their adherents believing in whatever merciful or ferocious deity they espouse. It is the curse of sapience...
What is wrong with simply the peace of oblivion, where at last, all things are equal? It seems a lot more likely, and certainly more reasonable, than the fairy stories told by the churchs.
quote:
It is difficult for us to imagine an existence that lacks the unique, irreplaceable 'Me.'
(bill) Maybe so for some. My whole point is that the unique, irreplaceable you is left to contemplate the ultimate meaninglessness of his/her very existence when pondering on the naturalistic universe as in the end, nothing will even matter. No wonder all the ultimate despair for those who have no eternal hope. That is why we see the rock star, actor, sport hero throw it all away on vice. They have been to the top, they have had the best that the world had to offer, and yet they have found all this to be meaningless, a chase after the wind. What do you do when you have reached the top of that the world and experienced the best it could offer and you still find meaninglessness? Many of them turn to medicating themselves to escape the reality they now know to be true. The poor still have the hope that money and fame can solve all their troubles, while the rich know better.
quote:
We have difficulty accepting that we are all going to die,
(bill) I have no difficulty knowing I am going to die. I have eternity to look forward to. An eternal existence that infinitely transcends my earthly existence.
quote:
therefore our -- call it: 'Essence' -- must carry on somewhere, somehow.
(bill) Unless you subscribe to the naturalistic universe, in which case your essence ceases to exist at the point of death to your body, leaving the life that you lead and the choices that you made, meaningless.
quote:
Therefore, we have always invented these afterlives with no factual basis in nature.
(bill) That is your speculative conclusion, while billions come to a very different conclusion based on their observations of the world around them.
quote:
It is and will be, until the demise of our species,
(bill) Agreed. There will always be those who say that "God did it" and there always be those that say "he did not", long after our discussions end.
quote:
which will come long before the demise of the universe,
(bill) Speculation.
quote:
the lore that keeps religions going and their adherents believing in whatever merciful or ferocious deity they espouse.
(bill) If your trying to say that my hope for eternal life in the presence of my creator is what keeps me going then I would say, yes, many times that is what sustains me when faced when some of the many challenges of life that we all face.
quote:
It is the curse of sapience...
(bill) Your arbitrary conclusion not mine...
quote:
What is wrong with simply the peace of oblivion, where at last, all things are equal?
(bill) You first have to have an essence before you can experience peace. With no essence you will not even experience, in oblivion, the peace that eluded you in this life, as in death you will lose your essence. So not even oblivion can bring peace to those who subscribe to a meaninglessness naturalistic universe.
quote:
It seems a lot more likely, and certainly more reasonable, than the fairy stories told by the churchs.
(bill) While you and yours have come to your conclusions, billions have come to a very different conclusion.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2006 : 08:20:09 [Permalink]
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verso said:
quote:
These discussions have demonstrated one thing perfectly clearly: humans can rationalize anything.
More correctly stated: Some people can rationalize anything.
As evidenced by your continued assertion that a fertilized egg is the same as a conscious human being.
Let me ask you, how many stored (and soon to be destroyed) fertilized eggs from invitro clinics have you asked your wife and daughters (if they are old enough) to "rescue" and carry to term? When was the last time you called for the shutdown of invitro fertilization clinics?
It only seems rational that if you want to accuse people of murder for having an abortion that you'd be out there trying to stop the mass murder that occurs in the invitro clinics.
You know, invitro fertilization involves the creation of multiple fertilized eggs, which are usually used in batches of 4 at a time. The success rate for getting a woman pregnant is only 30%, with multiple pregnancies fairly common (i.e. non-identical twins/triplets). So out of the dozens of human lives crated in the petri dish only a small % ever get born. The rest sacrificed on the alter of human vanity so people who aren't normally capable of breeding can produce offspring.
Where, I wonder, is the legislation to ban in vitro fertilization?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2006 : 09:03:59 [Permalink]
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verso wrote: quote:
Does this mean people who are in a coma, or even in the deeper cycles of sleep, or temporarily not people?
and quote:
You can call it a parasite. THAT is loaded rhetoric. How is the fact that an embryo fits the definition of a parasite relevant to anything?
Talk about not paying attention. Verso, all you've done is separate all the reasons people gave for supporting legal abortion, and you've totally missed that the reasons all go hand in hand with each other. No, we don't debate the humanity of a person in a coma just because they are unconscious. However, if they have not yet developed any personality, relationships, consciousness AND they are biologically dependent on another human being (in other words, nonviable), THEN we debate their humanity BECAUSE the mother's right over what happens to her own body is not an undeniable part of the equation. Understand?
I use the word parasite because 1.) It IS a biologically accurate definition – look up any definition of parasite and tell me how a embryo or fetus does not fit that definition. And 2.) It is shorthand so I don't have to type something like “biologically dependent on another being while contributing none of its own energy or resources to the relationship.” 3.) It is loaded, but it is loaded in a way that makes the point that we are dealing with a women's rights issue here. You can sit there and pretend that non-viability and unborn humans' parasitic nature can be so simply dismissed, but I think you are not dealing with a very important side of this issue.
You talk about us rationalizing. Well, it is amazing, the huge number of people “rationalizing” this issue. People rationalize when there is something in it for them. But hundreds of thousands of Americans who never have been and never will be touched by abortion still favor it being legal. My mom's a great example. She's Catholic and believes abortion to be morally wrong, so she would never get one herself. However, she doesn't hoist her religious beliefs on the rest of a secular society and she regards the decision to abort as a very personal, private decision. She also doesn't think of it as murder, nor does she hold people she knows who have had abortions with contempt. So why don't you tell me my mother's selfish motive for being pro-choice? I mean, c'mon verso, you go on this tirade about how we're all rationalizing this and you suggest that this issue is such a no brainer for anyone with a conscience. That's an insult to everyone here who is pro-choice.
Verso, are you in favor of outlawing fertility clinics, the birth control pill and several other methods (because they are potential aborticacients – sometimes when they fail to stop a conception, they succeed in terminating that conception within a few days.), outlawing the morning after pill, outlawing drinking, smoking or any other reckless behavior on the part of pregnant women?
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 03/17/2006 09:06:36 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2006 : 09:12:38 [Permalink]
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Bill wrote:quote:
But of course as soon as those who knew you die then all the memories of you that they had cease to exisist as well. In one generation it would be as if you had never existed. So not even a legacy can escape the meaninglessness and eventual annhilation of the naturialistic universe.
Why should I care if I'm eventually forgotten after I die? I'll be dead then, so it's not like it'll make a difference. And right now I got a whole heck of a lot stuff that I care about, so my life has meaning.
Bill, “meaning” is something projected by conscious beings. Humans are conscious beings. Therefore we give our own lives meaning. Even if all of humanity dies tomorrow, our lives had meaning while we were alive, and that can never be stricken from the record of time.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2006 : 09:49:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Bill wrote:quote:
But of course as soon as those who knew you die then all the memories of you that they had cease to exisist as well. In one generation it would be as if you had never existed. So not even a legacy can escape the meaninglessness and eventual annhilation of the naturialistic universe.
Why should I care if I'm eventually forgotten after I die? I'll be dead then, so it's not like it'll make a difference. And right now I got a whole heck of a lot stuff that I care about, so my life has meaning.
Bill, “meaning” is something projected by conscious beings. Humans are conscious beings. Therefore we give our own lives meaning. Even if all of humanity dies tomorrow, our lives had meaning while we were alive, and that can never be stricken from the record of time.
quote:
Why should I care if I'm eventually forgotten after I die?
(bill) I never said you should. I was responding to filthy who said the best after life one could hope for was that the ones who knew him would remember him or something like that.
quote:
I'll be dead then, so it's not like it'll make a difference. And right now I got a whole heck of a lot stuff that I care about, so my life has meaning.
(bill) It might have temporary meaning to you, but in the scope of the complete naturalistic universe it all ends in meaningless non-existence rendering the time you did spend in existence ultimately meaningless, anyway.
quote:
Bill, “meaning” is something projected by conscious beings. Humans are conscious beings. Therefore we give our own lives meaning.
(bill) Temporary meaning that is.
quote:
Even if all of humanity dies tomorrow, our lives had meaning while we were alive, and that can never be stricken from the record of time.
(bill) Who will be left to strike it from the record? Who would be left to even observe the record? What good is a record of time if no one is even around to observe the record? Vanity, vanity all is vanity, like a chase after the wind. All the records will have been achieved and recorded in vain in the naturalistic universe that ends in ultimate meaninglessness.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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